Ableton Forum

GrooveNinja wrote:

xherv wrote:

GrooveNinja wrote:Skyrocketing health care costs! Any why are they skyrocketing?

I'm not sure what you're implying here. If you're arguing that unions are unfairly demanding health care coverage, that's a political position. It is how things have worked traditionally.

Objectively, it costs more to acquire the same care today as it did 10 ten years ago, both in flat terms and when adjusted to the overall rate of inflation. Americans spend the largest percentage of GDP on health care in the world and the highest amount on administrative costs per dollar spent on health care. Yet on some measures like average lifespan and infant mortality, we don't do well. We have world-class medicine in this country but not a world-class health care system. Hopefully whatever shape policy takes we gain in both areas in the future, we certainly can do better.

Yes, that is all true, but I was asking why is it so expensive?

It's estimated that $1,500 of every truck sold by a US car manufacturer goes towards the legacy insurance costs of employees who no longer work for the company but will be fully covered until the day they die. So it's not so much that insurance is expensive, and I guess we'll pretend no other company pays for insurance, but they are paying for their former employees to the grave.

Goddamnit, why do I know so much about this situation.

xherv - "(This post is certifiably a ranting from a chronic smart-ass)"
that's funny.

btw I didn't add that, yeah, the original post is a funny picture, it's been making its way around the interweb. personally it's not something I'd post here.


hooray for unions.

boo American cars... except my Mazda is actually a Ford.

so what companies are we actually talking about?


the problem's much more complicated than you guys are making it.

beats me wrote:

GrooveNinja wrote:

xherv wrote: I'm not sure what you're implying here. If you're arguing that unions are unfairly demanding health care coverage, that's a political position. It is how things have worked traditionally.

Objectively, it costs more to acquire the same care today as it did 10 ten years ago, both in flat terms and when adjusted to the overall rate of inflation. Americans spend the largest percentage of GDP on health care in the world and the highest amount on administrative costs per dollar spent on health care. Yet on some measures like average lifespan and infant mortality, we don't do well. We have world-class medicine in this country but not a world-class health care system. Hopefully whatever shape policy takes we gain in both areas in the future, we certainly can do better.

Yes, that is all true, but I was asking why is it so expensive?

It's estimated that $1,500 of every truck sold by a US car manufacturer goes towards the legacy insurance costs of employees who no longer work for the company but will be fully covered until the day they die. So it's not so much that insurance is expensive, and I guess we'll pretend no other company pays for insurance, but they are paying for their former employees to the grave.

Goddamnit, why do I know so much about this situation.

That is almost as ridiculous as the frickin' gubmint. And, dammit, why do you know so much about this? Don't you have some tracks to mix or something like that?

GrooveNinja wrote: Yes, that is all true, but I was asking why is it so expensive?

This is a trick question for me, I can't answer it without eventually getting political, but here's I think a fairly objective although certainly not comprehensive list of some of what's going on:

• ** Administration costs, related to a crazy insurance world and lack of infrastructure
  ** Health insurers are incentivized to maintain small risk pools
  ** Health insurers have more lawyers than their patients which can create a lot of problems
  ** Doctors and other medical professionals can make a lot more money by specializing, lowering the overall pool of more general (and more cost-effective) care
  ** Malpractice insurance is ridiculously high
  ** Pharmaceuticals (although justified to some degree by R&D costs)
  ** Not enough emphasis on preventive care; people show up to the ER a few months into a bout of pneumonia, for example, rather than early on when it's cheaper and healthier to treat (especially true amongst the uninsured)
  ** An aging population leading to increased scarcity of health care resources
  ** Advances in chronic care are generally costly (although miraculous for those patients)

The best thing in the health care world in the US right now, IMO, is minute clinics . . .

Tone Deft wrote: the problem's much more complicated than you guys are making it.

There can be no doubt about that, but the underlying question was why can't these companies compete? And why do the taxpayers need to loan them money?

Anyways, I was irked by the statement that American cars suck ass, when no, they don't. Not all of them.

beats me wrote:So it's not so much that insurance is expensive, and I guess we'll pretend no other company pays for insurance, but they are paying for their former employees to the grave.

It's what employees signed up for when they went to work 30 or 40 years ago though.

xherv wrote:

GrooveNinja wrote: Yes, that is all true, but I was asking why is it so expensive?

This is a trick question for me, I can't answer it without eventually getting political, but here's I think a fairly objective although certainly not comprehensive list of some of what's going on:

• ** Administration costs, related to a crazy insurance world and lack of infrastructure
  ** Health insurers are incentivized to maintain small risk pools
  ** Health insurers have more lawyers than their patients which can create a lot of problems
  ** Doctors and other medical professionals can make a lot more money by specializing, lowering the overall pool of more general (and more cost-effective) care
  ** Malpractice insurance is ridiculously high
  ** Pharmaceuticals (although justified to some degree by R&D costs)
  ** Not enough emphasis on preventive care; people show up to the ER a few months into a bout of pneumonia, for example, rather than early on when it's cheaper and healthier to treat (especially true amongst the uninsured)
  ** An aging population leading to increased scarcity of health care resources
  ** Advances in chronic care are generally costly (although miraculous for those patients)

The best thing in the health care world in the US right now, IMO, is minute clinics . . .

It was a trick question, but you clearly know the answers. I just feel like being an a-hole today, that's all. Anyways, you mentioned lawyers, so you get the prize. You'll be receiving it on January 20th.

Actually we did put someone in the White House who absolutely has experience in health care administration - Michelle Obama, who was administrating at the University of Chicago Medical Center. It wasn't highlighted at all during the campaign, but she did some interesting, cost-saving things there.

I still think our best shot is making Hugh Laurie the Surgeon General.

[edit] Crap, I did just fail and go political there didn't I.

GrooveNinja wrote:Anyways, I was irked by the statement that American cars suck ass, when no, they don't. Not all of them.

which would you buy? there are brands I wouldn't even consider. Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac, Lincoln, Mercury... absolutely retarded cars for old people who can't drive. Jeep and Hummer - yeah, fucking great, a whole line of cars with pathetic mileage ratings. Cadillac? polished turds.

xherv wrote:

beats me wrote:So it's not so much that insurance is expensive, and I guess we'll pretend no other company pays for insurance, but they are paying for their former employees to the grave.

It's what employees signed up for when they went to work 30 or 40 years ago though.

Right, and a lot of these union brokered deals took place when automation was coming into play and people were being replaced by robots. That is now totally laughable. Do you know how many people today have probably lost their job to a computer or robot? And they didn't get set up for the rest of their lives.

It's the same premise as the federal income tax being instituted to fund the civil war and somebody just forgot to stop it. Aside from a few folks in the deep south we are long done with fighting the civil war.

GrooveNinja wrote:

Tone Deft wrote: the problem's much more complicated than you guys are making it.

There can be no doubt about that, but the underlying question was why can't these companies compete? And why do the taxpayers need to loan them money?

Anyways, I was irked by the statement that American cars suck ass, when no, they don't. Not all of them.

I agree, but to go back to your take that in your experience US cars have lasted longer etc. Well statistically your experience is rare. There's no set amount of time that any car breaks down, but japanese cars tend to last longer as a whole, hence the image. The reasons are probably where they cut costs VS us.
Also, laying blame for the bad business choices of the big three on the union is stupid. Anytime they want to, they could break the unions, in fact with the amount of people laying blame on the workers wages, (when most of the work is outsourced anyway) I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the outcomes of all this. They made bad choices on where to spend their research time on, and what to offer the public IMO.
Offering huge gas guzzling vehicles, because people were doing a sort of "fuck you!!" to the middle east, either subconsciously or consciously, then watching gas prices get to over 4$ a gallon, I wasn't at all surprised that US car companies were all of a sudden doing badly.

Anyway, I'm sure this will go on for another 5 pages, and my studio is still dismantled, have fun figuring out how to fuck the working class with a smile on your face guys.

beats me wrote:

xherv wrote:

beats me wrote:So it's not so much that insurance is expensive, and I guess we'll pretend no other company pays for insurance, but they are paying for their former employees to the grave.

It's what employees signed up for when they went to work 30 or 40 years ago though.

Right, and a lot of these union brokered deals took place when automation was coming into play and people were being replaced by robots. That is now totally laughable. Do you know how many people today have probably lost their job to a computer or robot? And they didn't get set up for the rest of their lives.

No question that the current realities of health care costs are making those deals extremely burdensome, but I'm just saying if health care didn't cost so much more relative to where we think it could or should be, then they wouldn't be so burdensome.

As to who finances health care - employers, government, individuals - that's more political, we probably all calculate the societal good produced under different models in different ways but for people that are retiring after decades of employment at these places, who rationally assumed health care would be there, I just hope we find a way to make that happen as well as possible.

Machinesworking wrote:There's no set amount of time that any car breaks down

Actually there is a set amount of time when cars break down. It's within 5 days after you make your last payment or the warranty expires. But I agree that's not just US cars. It's a global industry conspiracy.

The US manufactures have improved their quality but the problem is the vehicles come in 3 flavors.

A). The mutated gas guzzling behemoth that most people are realizing they didn't need
B). Sports cars most people can't afford and are equally bad on gas mileage
C). Ass ugly economy cars, and yes, we are just that shallow to care what the car looks like

beats me wrote:

Machinesworking wrote:There's no set amount of time that any car breaks down

Actually there is a set amount of time when cars break down. It's within 5 days after you make your last payment or the warranty expires. But I agree that's not just US cars. It's a global industry conspiracy.

The US manufactures have improved their quality but the problem is the vehicles come in 3 flavors.

A). The mutated gas guzzling behemoth that most people are realizing they didn't need
B). Sports cars most people can't afford and are equally bad on gas mileage
C). Ass ugly economy cars, and yes, we are just that shallow to care what the car looks like

Pretty much dead on, but the other US stupid is the 'economy' cars aren't nearly as well built, yet aren't really that much cheaper, or even that fuel efficient lat time I checked.

Where US auto makers get it right is in the huge pickups, that actually have purpose. Met a plumber who killed any truck he drove in less than 5 years unless it was a US monster, and even those lasted only 5 years, thousand pounds of steal pipes in the back will do that sort of thing.

Also riddle me this, the motherfuckers can outsource 80% of the manufacturing to other countries for years, and not a peep about lost jobs, yet once they want a fucking handout from the government, it's all about the jobs man! Freaking union broke our backs and raped us blind waaah waahh!! Ima go fly in my Leer jet to beg the government for a handout waaaah!
Gotta love it, and here you guys are all biting hook line and sinker, "gosh darn it! how dare someone receive medical after retirement when all they did is work for the same darned company for 30 odd years? By golly those factory workers are raping the CEOs!!"