Ableton Forum

kb420 wrote:There is absolutely no doubt in my mind what the intentions of that cartoon were, and it was completely out of line. I'm not being sensitive. It is what it is!

I agree. I love politically incorrect humor probably more than I should, but it's silly to think a reader is going to make the leap from a single chimp to the senate etc. and to make the connection that the main front guy for the bill (Obama), didn't write it etc. This guy knew what he was doing, any typically vague reference like this is explained in political cartoons worldwide, the chimp would have "senate" or "congress" etc. printed on him like they do for any vague reference they make. The reasons for their not being a label on the chimp are clear, he wanted to allude to Obama, but wanted an out if he was too heavily criticized.

I think that if you can't see that political cartoon as being racist and a clear shot at Obama's ethnicity then you are either naive or completely out of touch with African Americans

I think it's a third option, they found a way to feel comfortable with the cartoon. Far too many people make some irrational guilt connection when one of their own race is racist, and if there's the slimmest chance that the incident can be read to not be racist, they'll take it.

kb420 wrote:



http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?654316



I thought Obama getting elected was a good thing. Now young African Americans are growning up in a world where the statement "You can be anything you want to be, even the President of the United States" is a true statement.


But I guess in some ways, him being elected only sparks more racism.

Don't agree with you there, him being elected won't spark more racism, it will just make it more obvious. In that sense, let the fuckers do it. They'll make themselves look so pathetically stupid that people who might have been swayed by more passive aggressive rhetoric will realize what kind of mindset they're potentially buying into.
This is where PC policing fails, forcing a debate with this guy about his BS will only make the left look oppressive, pointing it out and letting these jerks hang themselves is the best method. Interfering with freedom of speech no matter how well intended isn't going to work. Interested to see how this plays out.

Machinesworking wrote:

kb420 wrote:There is absolutely no doubt in my mind what the intentions of that cartoon were, and it was completely out of line. I'm not being sensitive. It is what it is!

I agree. I love politically incorrect humor probably more than I should, but it's silly to think a reader is going to make the leap from a single chimp to the senate etc. and to make the connection that the main front guy for the bill (Obama), didn't write it etc. This guy knew what he was doing, any typically vague reference like this is explained in political cartoons worldwide, the chimp would have "senate" or "congress" etc. printed on him like they do for any vague reference they make. The reasons for their not being a label on the chimp are clear, he wanted to allude to Obama, but wanted an out if he was too heavily criticized.

I think that if you can't see that political cartoon as being racist and a clear shot at Obama's ethnicity then you are either naive or completely out of touch with African Americans

I think it's a third option, they found a way to feel comfortable with the cartoon. Far too many people make some irrational guilt connection when one of their own race is racist, and if there's the slimmest chance that the incident can be read to not be racist, they'll take it.

kb420 wrote:



http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?654316



I thought Obama getting elected was a good thing. Now young African Americans are growning up in a world where the statement "You can be anything you want to be, even the President of the United States" is a true statement.


But I guess in some ways, him being elected only sparks more racism.

Don't agree with you there, him being elected won't spark more racism, it will just make it more obvious. In that sense, let the fuckers do it. They'll make themselves look so pathetically stupid that people who might have been swayed by more passive aggressive rhetoric will realize what kind of mindset they're potentially buying into.
This is where PC policing fails, forcing a debate with this guy about his BS will only make the left look oppressive, pointing it out and letting these jerks hang themselves is the best method. Interfering with freedom of speech no matter how well intended isn't going to work. Interested to see how this plays out.

bravo my vote for post of the day, this was extremely well put Machinesworking. Racist have two choices at this point which is to be racist or stupid, I guess that's really only one choice. trying to make one monkey seem like it represents the whole senate or congress hahaha what a stretch
I love it when racist make stretches like this it's so entertaining, even my little white gargoyle child sees through this. "daddy didn't obama just make big news signing his stimulis bill-yes my son, , and daddy didn't the paper just put a big article about obamas stimulis bill before the cartoon,,-yes my son
then daddy why are those people lying?,,-because they are humans my son
not gargoyles like ourselves. black and white gargoyles have always been family and no hatred between us of course we don't like uncle earl and auntie martha but that's just because they're annoying gargoyles not because of their skin color. Oh a prouder gargoyle there could never be.

white cops shooting "black" chimps.
gotta rub some people the wrong way.

This was on Talk Of The Nation today, so apparently lots of people are fired up about it. Unfortunately what I caught wasn't very good; instead of Neil Conan it was his sub, Lynn Neary, who seemed a little out of touch at times...for instance, not being familiar with the fact that Bush's likeness has been lampooned with chimp pictures for the past eight years.

And unfortunately some of the callers I heard seemed just as daft; truthfully I had to stop listening after a while.

As the cartoonist who was on the show pointed out, this should've been nixed by the editors. I agree that since it is a right-wing paper, the inherent racist undertone was not only overlooked, but maybe even deemed as hilarious. And I'm certainly NOT saying all right-wingers are racist, but I am saying that after eight years of having Bush's likeness compared to a chimp, this could be seen as a kind of payback...and one that's easy to defend with the "I'm so racist I can't even see how racist I am" types:

"Oh so if I say Bush looks like an ape that's ok, but if I imply Obama's an ape getting shot by some white cops, all of a sudden that's racist?"

Yes asshole, it is.

aren´t we all chimps?

so the cartoon was about two cops shooting a crazy monkey on xanax and implying that the senate had the stimulus bill written by that monkey. are you saying that you see Obama as that monkey?

by raising this outrage the left is just being intellectually lazy and easily distracted. (and by deliberately taking the picture out of context people are engaging in a bit of a soviet-style witch-hunt) in the meantime: the senate has passed an enormous bill that nobody had time to read (by unanimous admission) and that will have huge repercussions for a decade or two. the bill was not given for public review (remember that campaign promise) and was pushed on us with a constant barrage of announcements about how the situation is the worst in our lifetime and how not passing this bill would lead to the direst of consequences. I hate to give in to cynicism soon after Barack's incredibly refreshing victory, but the whole thing is eerily reminiscent of... say, 2002... except now it's supposedly the good guys that are doing this. So we don't really know or understand the bill, the right is making crude cartoonish attacks, the left is retaliating with PC vengeance and the people down the street are crossing their fingers and hoping they don't get fucked as hard this time around.

aleme wrote:aren´t we all chimps?

no. while being closely related, human beings are clearly not chimpanzees.

ilia wrote: are you saying that you see Obama as that monkey?

by raising this outrage the left is just being intellectually lazy and easily distracted. (and by deliberately taking the picture out of context people are engaging in a bit of a soviet-style witch-hunt)

So what makes you think you can tell someone what is and what isn't offensive?

Since when is finding something that is blatenly offensive being intellectually lazy?

So if someone calls me a "nigger", and I get upset about it, then I am being easily distracted?


Wow! I think I've heard it all.

I think you need to take a look in the mirror my friend, and ask yourself if you are a racist or not?

sven303 wrote:Seriously people need to stop being so friggin sensitive....

The more people stand up spouting political correctness the more i rebel against the machine and im quite sure im not alone

And why does it always seem to be a middle aged white woman who get outraged at racist jokes or references

Actually as of this moment i am officially rejecting the term 'political correctness' from my consciousness....what the hell is wrong with just respecting people and common sense like my good dad taught me.

What an odd post. The only people who ever use the term PC are, in my experience, people from the right who prefer the good old days when you could call a spade a spade (the old UK usage of the word...) and other shitheads would laugh at them.

When has anyone ever said "I'm PC"? Never, it's always used to slag others off. "Oh you're so PC". People have said it to me and I usually respond "No, I'm not PC, it's just that I have a brain and I acknowledge the power of words."

dazzer wrote:

sven303 wrote:Seriously people need to stop being so friggin sensitive....

The more people stand up spouting political correctness the more i rebel against the machine and im quite sure im not alone

And why does it always seem to be a middle aged white woman who get outraged at racist jokes or references

Actually as of this moment i am officially rejecting the term 'political correctness' from my consciousness....what the hell is wrong with just respecting people and common sense like my good dad taught me.

What an odd post. The only people who ever use the term PC are, in my experience, people from the right who prefer the good old days when you could call a spade a spade (the old UK usage of the word...) and other shitheads would laugh at them.

When has anyone ever said "I'm PC"? Never, it's always used to slag others off. "Oh you're so PC". People have said it to me and I usually respond "No, I'm not PC, it's just that I have a brain and I acknowledge the power of words."

yep.. A dickhead called me pc and a racist for being so called 'pc' on this very forum recently for calling him out on his racist shit. I think it's very funny how biggots think they are fooling anyone by changing the issues of racism and non-racism to an issue of political correctness. I understand that
they are trying to remarket themselves but it's frickin redookilous. The only people who will fall for that crap is their own children.

kb420 wrote:So what makes you think you can tell someone what is and what isn't offensive?

Since when is finding something that is blatenly offensive being intellectually lazy?

I didn't say the cartoon was not offensive, I just think that taking it as intentionally racist is a stretch. I personally didn't make a connection to Obama at all until I heard people talking about it -- if anything I thought it was a jab at Barney Frank. But the point is that all the focus on the supposed bigotry is distracting from the substance of the issue -- which is the lack of proper review and critique of an enormously important bill.

So if someone calls me a "nigger", and I get upset about it, then I am being easily distracted?

if somebody denigrates you because of the color of your skin, you have every right to be upset (and beat the crap out of them). and if you truly honestly believe that that cartoon was a visual equivalent of someone calling you a "nigger", than you are right to be upset. but i haven't met anybody in their right mind who thinks that Obama is a human embodiment of a crazy monkey, and I doubt that a political cartoonist with such views would go far in his career in New York, even at this right-wing newspaper. The truth is that the real racism in America today is more subtle and more complex than a two-bit bit manifestation people are intent on finding in this drawing, which is why I think it's intellectually lazy to overreact in this case.

And once again, it's a distraction, because in a nutshell the message here is: "this bill is so bad it could have been written by a crazy monkey", and instead of focusing on the merits and pitfalls of this hugely momentous piece of legislation the public is focusing on whether an inconsequential cartoon in a dumb newspaper is equating a monkey with Obama.

I think you need to take a look in the mirror my friend, and ask yourself if you are a racist or not?

Now, there's an argument to win all argumetns!
Well, I followed your advice and looked in the mirror, there was not much about racism there, but I did notice a two-day old stubble that needed to be taken care of, so thanks for the heads-up!

jamester wrote: This was on Talk Of The Nation today, so apparently lots of people are fired up about it. Unfortunately what I caught wasn't very good; instead of Neil Conan it was his sub, Lynn Neary, who seemed a little out of touch at times...for instance, not being familiar with the fact that Bush's likeness has been lampooned with chimp pictures for the past eight years.

And unfortunately some of the callers I heard seemed just as daft; truthfully I had to stop listening after a while.

+1 Got the old NPR on all the time and this story has been relentless. Both in it's coverage and stupidity. I found the discussions and points raised to be pedestrian at best. Felt like I was listening to Fox News.

ilia wrote:

I think you need to take a look in the mirror my friend, and ask yourself if you are a racist or not?

Now, there's an argument to win all argumetns!
Well, I followed your advice and looked in the mirror, there was not much about racism there, but I did notice a two-day old stubble that needed to be taken care of, so thanks for the heads-up!

Fair enough!

@ilia: you are very adept at debating that's for sure, anyone who can claim that the monkey was meant to ellude to obama being a stretch and then claim that it elluded to barney frank has more balls than the two i've got, ilia must be workin with a sixpack.

may I respectfully suggest that that imagery is more engrained in the psyche of black people than a non-racist white person. I've know about it but that connection just isn't there as a gut reaction.

BUT my psyche doesn't matter, it's the national psyche that matters and the collective psyche of millions of racist assholes that live in the US. I don't think anyone wants to dismiss it as a reality, it's a frame of reference.

punish the guy and move on, this shit and Imus' stupidity don't deserve our attention. kill their careers and move on.