Can someone from Ableton please answer this post.

[ewistrand]

Arrgh...

I've not made a call for promises, this is about reassurance that there will be a regular (weekly) update of fixes that have made during that week.

But- that's my point. You can't do that.

It is the case.

Ah no- it's not. It's apparent you've never been involved in a software release before...

If this is the case, then you be honest and print a few words saying that it's a work in progress and perhaps give a brief explanation of details. However, if it's really going to be that long, then surely, even you would have to agree that it should never have been released. Pre-booked stall at the Musikmesse or not!

Isn't that what they're doing? As far as details go- absolutely not. Either the average user wouldn't understand or you'd be giving away too many details about the internal workings.
And, marketing pressure has a lot to do with release dates, like it or not. Remember that Live 8 was announced at NAMM and not the Messe; you more than likely had distributors putting pressure on Ableton to make the release date.

I have done. Read my solutions.

They aren't solutions...

ew

[Jarvisimon]

I've not made a call for promises, this is about reassurance that there will be a regular (weekly) update of fixes that have made during that week.

But- that's my point. You can't do that.

Yes you can. It's actually quite simple. Issue a statement with some well chosen words and follow it up with weekly updates with the working bug fixes that have been made that week.

It's apparent you've never been involved in a software release before...

Don't be so condescending. I have been involved in quite a few betas now. Ableton are certainly the best, I would just like some official reassurance in regards to what they're doing about the bugs that remain.

If this is the case, then you be honest and print a few words saying that it's a work in progress and perhaps give a brief explanation of details. However, if it's really going to be that long, then surely, even you would have to agree that it should never have been released. Pre-booked stall at the Musikmesse or not!

Isn't that what they're doing?

Not really, there have been no official statements in regards to their plans to fix bugs. One Ableton employee has mentioned to me that they think there's enough to get on with even though they are aware of bugs crippling the software for some users. My answer was, how can these users get on with these great functions if their software won't even load? How do you see their answer as being of any comfort?

As far as details go- absolutely not. Either the average user wouldn't understand or you'd be giving away too many details about the internal workings.

I'm sure someone intelligent enough to code such a tool could release a statement that could both simplify an explanation as well as keep their secrets hidden.

marketing pressure has a lot to do with release dates, like it or not. Remember that Live 8 was announced at NAMM and not the Messe; you more than likely had distributors putting pressure on Ableton to make the release date.

Who's in charge? The distributors or the Company! Would you release software knowing it's not ready? If so, then I don't want to buy your software until it is. I'm not your investment bank afterall.

The purpose of this thread was to get some reassurance that fixes would come soon.

Your argument is that people should put up with something that still needs work because of marketing pressure and that you know better because you've been involved in various other releases.

How do you think people feel after paying for software that keeps crashing? Tell them that the marketing forces are more important than their money and that they'll just have to put up with it or use an older version.

An official statement in regards to bug fixes would solve more worries than anything else i've witnessed on this forum, even if a statement doesn't actually solve the problem itself.

Knowing that there is plans in place to carry on fixing bugs is reassuring. The "you're gonna have to wait til we're ready" stance that is being offered is not.

Why do you think this isn't the case?

[ewistrand]

Yes you can. It's actually quite simple. Issue a statement with some well chosen words and follow it up with weekly updates with the working bug fixes that have been made that week.

Once again, you're missing the point. You aren't going to see bug fixes at a weekly rate; there's not enough coders or testers to meet that schedule. And, posting when you have nothing to show just brings out the "why isn't this fixed yet" crowd.

Don't be so condescending. I have been involved in quite a few betas now. Ableton are certainly the best, I would just like some official reassurance in regards to what they're doing about the bugs that remain.

I'm not being condescending. If you've been involved in any post-release betas, you'd fully understand what I'm saying. Testing and consulting's a big part of my income- this is what I do for a living. Yourself?

As for reassurance, what do you call Carl and Christian posting in this thread?

Not really, there have been no official statements in regards to their plans to fix bugs. One Ableton employee has mentioned to me that they think there's enough to get on with even though they are aware of bugs crippling the software for some users. My answer was, how can these users get on with these great functions if their software won't even load? How do you see their answer as being of any comfort?

It's that way with any software release. Should we talk about broken compatibility with Apple updates, and how it sometimes takes months to get a fix? And, Apple's got lots more people than Ableton has.

The people posting on forums for the most part are the ones having issues. And, you'll usually find it's the minority of people who are having them.

I'm sure someone intelligent enough to code such a tool could release a statement that could both simplify an explanation as well as keep their secrets hidden.

If that were the case, you wouldn't have people bitching about user manuals for software, would you?

Who's in charge? The distributors or the Company! Would you release software knowing it's not ready? If so, then I don't want to buy your software until it is. I'm not your investment bank afterall.

Without distributors, you've cut your income by at least 3/4. Without that income, you can't pay the people who are fixing bugs. Economics 101.

The purpose of this thread was to get some reassurance that fixes would come soon.

Your argument is that people should put up with something that still needs work because of marketing pressure and that you know better because you've been involved in various other releases.

You're speaking shit. What I've been saying is that your idea isn't a sustainable model.

How do you think people feel after paying for software that keeps crashing? Tell them that the marketing forces are more important than their money and that they'll just have to put up with it or use an older version.

An official statement in regards to bug fixes would solve more worries than anything else i've witnessed on this forum, even if a statement doesn't actually solve the problem itself.

Knowing that there is plans in place to carry on fixing bugs is reassuring. The "you're gonna have to wait til we're ready" stance that is being offered is not.

Why do you think this isn't the case?

You just don't get it, do you?

ew

[Jarvisimon]

You aren't going to see bug fixes at a weekly rate; there's not enough coders or testers to meet that schedule. And, posting when you have nothing to show just brings out the "why isn't this fixed yet" crowd.

It was either Carl or Christian who said in this thread that the whole team are hard at work fixing bugs. Isn't that contrary to what you have just told me? Plus, I have stated quite clearly that clear honest statements will do a lot to quell any anger over bug fixes that may take a while.

I'm not being condescending. If you've been involved in any post-release betas, you'd fully understand what I'm saying. Testing and consulting's a big part of my income- this is what I do for a living. Yourself?

I found your remark very condescending. Don't pretend it was otherwise.

My main income is through gardening if you really want to know. Otherwise known as hard graft and I don't want to give it away to someone who can't yet offer assurance of a stable product, when they know that the official release is not there.

What is a post release beta? Surely the idea of a beta is to prepare it for release.

Are you being paid by Ableton for testing Live 8?

As for reassurance, what do you call Carl and Christian posting in this thread?

I have already thanked them for having posted in this thread. However, I suspect that they did so because the title of the thread directly asks Ableton to answer some questions. I have been partially satisfied with their answers, they have shown good understanding and much politeness, though they haven't actually given me a proper answer, rather than just fobbed me off with the "stay in the dark and we'll get around to it when we're ready" stance.

It's actually quite rude when you're a mere user and has lost them some respect that they have not sufficiently answered.

I'm now wondering if they have passed this on to you to avoid answering the question themselves.

It's that way with any software release. Should we talk about broken compatibility with Apple updates, and how it sometimes takes months to get a fix? And, Apple's got lots more people than Ableton has.

Don't change the subject, this is about Ableton, not Apple. You seem to be saying, "just cos the big boys do it, it's alright for Ableton to do the same".

A bad attitude if you want my money.

The people posting on forums for the most part are the ones having issues. And, you'll usually find it's the minority of people who are having them.

This is supposition. You cannot tell me that the majority of users are having no problems at all as you don't know yourself. A couple of users have told me they're having no crashes, but the majority of posts show the opposite.

It may well be just as true that the users who claim no problems will experience a few crashes the more they use the software.

I'm sure someone intelligent enough to code such a tool could release a statement that could both simplify an explanation as well as keep their secrets hidden.

If that were the case, you wouldn't have people bitching about user manuals for software, would you?

I think this is because little money is spent on manuals, I doubt they get an indepth proof-reading (I used to be a proof-reader), more a cursory glance . The writing of manuals is all expenditure and if it's been written in someone's second language then it's going to be even worse.

Without distributors, you've cut your income by at least 3/4. Without that income, you can't pay the people who are fixing bugs. Economics 101.

Without good communication channels software companies can lose their customer base. Without stable software that users can use without crashing there is no product.

The purpose of this thread was to get some reassurance that fixes would come soon.

You're speaking shit. What I've been saying is that your idea isn't a sustainable model.

Now you're just getting personal and rude. Answer me honestly....are you getting paid by Ableton?

I do not see in the slightest how my idea isn't sustainable. I am asking for reassurance that these bugs will be fixed. How can that be unsustainable?

These bugs aren't going to disappear all by themselves, so I take it the Ableton team must want to fix them, otherwise they'll have give themselves a pretty bad name for coding second rate software, something I believe they would agree with me is not their intention.

I shall repeat my message to Ableton yet again.

What are your plans for producing updates?

If you are paying ewistrand, then perhaps you would like to think twice about using him in the future, let alone honouring his fees as he'd rather throw insults than be of any help.

He is suggesting that I put up and shut up because it's how other much bigger companies treat their clients and that you should do the same to yours.

I'll repeat myself again here for you too ewistrand. I would be grateful were you to answer this, as i'm sure other users would like to know your views.

Is the users money more important than marketing forces or stable software?

You just don't get it, do you?

Oh I get it alright.

You're more bothered about yourself than this product or the people who pay money for it. User get stuffed!

[ewistrand]

It was either Carl or Christian who said in this thread that the whole team are hard at work fixing bugs. Isn't that contrary to what you have just told me? Plus, I have stated quite clearly that clear honest statements will do a lot to quell any anger over bug fixes that may take a while.

Weren't you the one who was saying that you needed reassurance, and that statement wasn't acceptable to you?

I found your remark very condescending. Don't pretend it was otherwise.

Jeez...

What is a post release beta? Surely the idea of a beta is to prepare it for release.

Post release betas are for updates and the like. There's also betas that stay strictly in house, and that the outside testers never see

Are you being paid by Ableton for testing Live 8?

Nope. As a matter of fact, I'm still using 6. I didn't see it worthwhile to upgrade to 7.
And while I joined the public beta for 8, I didn't see any of the issues that people are complaining about.

I have already thanked them for having posted in this thread. However, I suspect that they did so because the title of the thread directly asks Ableton to answer some questions. I have been partially satisfied with their answers, they have shown good understanding and much politeness, though they haven't actually given me a proper answer, rather than just fobbed me off with the "stay in the dark and we'll get around to it when we're ready" stance.

It's actually quite rude when you're a mere user and has lost them some respect that they have not sufficiently answered.

I'm now wondering if they have passed this on to you to avoid answering the question themselves.

As I said, I have nothing to do with Ableton. I'm just trying to explain to you how software development works. Evidently you aren't listening.

Don't change the subject, this is about Ableton, not Apple. You seem to be saying, "just cos the big boys do it, it's alright for Ableton to do the same".

.
I'm not changing the subject; I'm just pointing out the realities in the software world.

This is supposition. You cannot tell me that the majority of users are having no problems at all as you don't know yourself. A couple of users have told me they're having no crashes, but the majority of posts show the opposite.

It may well be just as true that the users who claim no problems will experience a few crashes the more they use the software.

As I said, people aren't going to be posting if they aren't having problems. I moderate nine forums; eight for NI and the Camel Audio forum at KVR. I know from personal experience what I'm talking about.

If you can prove me wrong, be my guest...

I think this is because little money is spent on manuals, I doubt they get an indepth proof-reading (I used to be a proof-reader), more a cursory glance . The writing of manuals is all expenditure and if it's been written in someone's second language then it's going to be even worse.

Which is what you'd run into here. Ableton's a German company, correct?

Now you're just getting personal and rude. Answer me honestly....are you getting paid by Ableton?

Ah- no. You were the one who started getting rude to begin with; I thought I'd just answer in kind. And no- I have zero to do with Ableton, as I mentioned earlier.

ew

[[nis]]

Hello Jarvisimon,

be assured that we take all bug reports serious and will provide bugfix updates as quickly as we can. We decide the release date of a bugfix update on a weekly, if not daily base, so there is no specific rule when exactly an update will be released to the public. However, it is very likely that you will see a first update within the first few weeks after the initial release. As my colleage Carl mentioned before, we have released 11-15 updates for our previous Live versions. If you consider that it usually takes 1 - 1 1/2 years until another major upgrade sees the light, that should give you a rough estimate of how often you can expect an update from us.

Note that some bugs are pretty easy to fix, whereas other's are not, even though it may sometimes look easy from a user's perspective. That having said, we do our best to provide a stable, reliable and most importantly a useful software product, but we cannot and will not provide a "guarantee" that every single issue can be sorted out, nor can we provide a fixed schedule.

Hope this answers your question.

Best regards,
Nico

[hoffman2k]

Woah.. Deja-vu

[Jarvisimon]

it is very likely that you will see a first update within the first few weeks after the initial release.

Ok well that's a beginning and wouldn't have been difficult to answer 4+ hours ago but thanks all the same.

Do you not think it would be a good service to your customers to come up with something a bit more regular, seeing as this release appears to have caused a lot of problems for so many users?

In reality I don't mind there not being a weekly update but surely releasing a bugfix as soon as it has been mended is a good service and would show great respect to people who have had to wait.

During beta testing, I must have downloaded over 5 gb of content, with updates being presented every day at some points. Why is this not possible now it's had an official release?

I am quite happy buying a release with known bugs but it's only now that you have given even the slightest hint of a time scale, even though, in reality your words here are vague.

we cannot and will not provide a "guarantee" that every single issue can be sorted out, nor can we provide a fixed schedule.

Here I go repeating myself yet again.

I have not asked for a guarantee, merely assurance that fixes will be posted with some regularity.

However, should you not be able to supply a fix for a problem inherent in your code, would you guarantee a refund should someone find it unuseable?

I'm not a programmer so I can only imagine the huge amount of hours your team have spent producing this upgrade. The potential of the tools you provide in 8 is no less than amazing but they're nothing if they don't work together properly.

I have not even tried opening up my Live 7 projects in Live 8 yet but have read this is causing problems among a fair few users. When I do buy into this upgrade, this will be one of the first things I do. I wouldn't be particularly pleased if doing this repeatedly crashed my system and I am left in the dark as to when it will be remedied.

What harm would an informative announcement do in such a situation? None that I can see.

I do understand that not every problem is going to be a simple one. Surely though, it would make sense not to release major upgrades until you know they're a lot closer to being useable than this release is showing up to be.

Sod the projected release deadlines. Happy customers are more important.

I hope you can understand why people have voiced disappointment with this release. Especially people who have found it unuseable and reverted to 7 after shelling out good money for what is one of the most expensive DAWs on the market.

It has been suggested that you have been financially pushed into an early release, something i'm sure has more than a grain of truth in it but i'm not happy to be anyone's cash machine. No matter how enticing the overall picture is.

Now, I don't want to end on a negative note, so this is my truthful view on your software. Ableton Live really has improved my workflow no end, you have simplified some really laborious processes for which I can only offer your team the greatest of thanks and look forward to getting the suite. It's a cracking piece of software and I don't want to change platforms now I've discovered its methods. So more power to your elbow and I hope you go on making it even better with every major release.

[Jarvisimon]

I shan't go into everything here as i've had a half decent response from another Ableton employee, though perhaps he will yet be kind enough to answer some of the questions I raised in my answer.

I would like you to point out the answer to this curious sentence here though.

Ah- no. You were the one who started getting rude to begin with; I thought I'd just answer in kind.

I am intrigued to know what I said that could be construed as rudeness.

I haven't sworn, made false allegations or been personal in any way, shape or form.

Also, well done for not answering my question in regard to market forces and money being more important than stable software. I wouldn't have answered it either. Afterall, there isn't an answer anyone can come up with that justifies that point of view.

[arachnaut]

Why not lay off a while and let the developers have some time to fix bugs instead of reading stuff like this.

I think everyone has made their point and no one is likely to change their mind.

[Jarvisimon]

Why not lay off a while and let the developers have some time to fix bugs instead of reading stuff like this.

I think everyone has made their point and no one is likely to change their mind.

Actually, it's pretty much run its course. Perhaps there's a bit more to go but on the whole it's done and dusted.

You're right though, i'm not upgrading just yet. It's nowhere near ready and having been informed that there won't be any bug updates for at least a couple of weeks, it's not worth it. Even then, it might be even longer til I upgrade, i'm sure the next update will tackle a fair few bugs but that's no guarantee of stability and with no word as to how often bugfix updates will be released before it becomes stable enough to use, it could well be a few months yet.

Shame though, i've had a glimpse of something really good but I don't want to go through the frustration of being a guineapig. Surely that's what the beta is for.

Also, whilst the money is in my bank account, it's earning me interest and not paying for work that should have been done during the beta.

Great software but i'm not at all impressed with their misuse of customer dedication.

[hoffman2k]

Also, well done for not answering my question in regard to market forces and money being more important than stable software. I wouldn't have answered it either. Afterall, there isn't an answer anyone can come up with that justifies that point of view.

Define stable software. Did you expect to see this section filled with posts of how well Live 8 is working?
You won't hear the people who don't have issues... because they don't have a reason to be here in this bug section.
If you're going to monitor the development process until its over, you'll be here a long time.
The development and the bug fixing never ends. What happens when you think Live 8 is fixed for about 80% and suddenly Ableton introduces Live 8.x with new features? You'll be back to square one.
New beta's, new features, new bugs and new updates.
Stranger things have happened.

Why doesn't Ableton say when the next bug fix is going to appear? Lets say they prepare a fix, promise it the next day, start compiling the code and the power goes out. They'd have to restart the compiling process and be too late for the promised update.
That is one of 101 scenarios I could probably come up with.

Live gets released near a trade show? What a coincidence! Other software companies completed their product on the same date? Woah, MAJOR coincidence!
When Ableton does a beta, they do it round the clock. This means that for 27 public betas and a big period leading up to that, programmers have been working almost every day and night to fix bugs, get feedback from users, have meetings, etc..
How long can a human or more importantly A Team of Humans keep that up?
Maybe the Live 8 deadline seems like all marketing to you. But tell that to the kids of the people who've been at the office for months. And besides, when do you release a product? During a trade show while the whole audio world is watching and reporting? Or in the summer when all the developers are distracted by soccer?

[ewistrand]

I shan't go into everything here as i've had a half decent response from another Ableton employee, though perhaps he will yet be kind enough to answer some of the questions I raised in my answer.

Surprise- he told you the same thing the other two Ableton people (Carl and Christian) did. What makes his answer acceptable and the other two's not? I'm waiting...

I would like you to point out the answer to this curious sentence here though.

Ah- no. You were the one who started getting rude to begin with; I thought I'd just answer in kind.

I am intrigued to know what I said that could be construed as rudeness.

Where to begin... should we start with ignoring everything that everybody's tried to point out to you? Or maybe it was your "Don't be condescending" remark? Or maybe it's that you've been carrying on like a five year old? Or...

Those are all rude in my book. My response was justified, and tamer than I normally would have been...

Also, well done for not answering my question in regard to market forces and money being more important than stable software. I wouldn't have answered it either. Afterall, there isn't an answer anyone can come up with that justifies that point of view.

There's nothing to answer there. We've all tried to show you how the software world works, and you refuse to listen. So be it.

ew

[Jarvisimon]

when do you release a product?

What's wrong with releasing it when its ready?

Read some of my previous posts in this thread as most angles have already been covered.

Sure, we're all governed by finance to one degree or another but we shouldn't be seen as cashpoints because someone has gone over budget or their projected deadline has expired.

Upgrading to 8 now is up to you, though as I said, I shan't be jumping in there just yet.

Funnily enough, i've posted in the Props forum that I think they leave it too long between version upgrades but i'm going to have to go back there and apologise because their releases are generally bug free and they certainly haven't bowed to commercial pressures.

Also, I know for a fact that Reason 2.5 was prevented from being sent to the production line and had its release delayed due to a bug that got reported at the very last minute.

Now that's what I call integrity and must have cost them tens of thousands if not more.

Shame the Props don't offer quite the same tools as Ableton, otherwise I would at least have a viable alternative should Ableton one day lose their ingenuity.

[ewistrand]

Also, I know for a fact that Reason 2.5 was prevented from being sent to the production line and had its release delayed due to a bug that got reported at the very last minute.

Say what? Reason 2.5 was a downloadable, free update; I've been a Reason user since v1. How did it cost them thousands to delay it?

ew