Fade Bug - First Kick sounds different -SOLVED!-

[[nis]]

Hi,

If I understand the problem of the OP correctly, then this isn't a bug, but rather a "feature" and this will most likely not change in the future. Live automatically applies safety fades on Arrangement View loops and also when you start the playback, otherwise you'd always get nasty clicks when you hit "play" or when the loop jumps back.

Best,
Nico

[mr.adl]

Hi,

If I understand the problem of the OP correctly, then this isn't a bug, but rather a "feature" and this will most likely not change in the future. Live automatically applies safety fades on Arrangement View loops and also when you start the playback, otherwise you'd always get nasty clicks when you hit "play" or when the loop jumps back.

Best,
Nico

Well, than it would be a great (and imho absolutely necessary) improvement to turn that feature off completely, as otherwise the first kick always sounds different.

[Rinsemeister]

I know this may sound obvious but you can turn fades off in either the prefs or individual clips.

I realise that it's a total PITA but at least we get a choice.

Having said that: when you duplicate a clip (and haven't disabled fades) the new clip is automatically
faded at the start and end. Etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Sorry for stating the obvious. I know this can be a total workflow killer as it's had me spending
hours "de-fading" my drumloops etc.

Tara,
Z.

[[nis]]

Hi,

If I understand the problem of the OP correctly, then this isn't a bug, but rather a "feature" and this will most likely not change in the future. Live automatically applies safety fades on Arrangement View loops and also when you start the playback, otherwise you'd always get nasty clicks when you hit "play" or when the loop jumps back.

Best,
Nico

Well, than it would be a great (and imho absolutely necessary) improvement to turn that feature off completely, as otherwise the first kick always sounds different.

Then you would get an ugly "plop" when you start the playback and any time the arrangement loops. I can't imagine that you really want this. If the safety fade annoys you, e.g. if your song starts off with a kick drum on bar 1.1.1, you might consider to move the entire arrangement by a bar to the right.

Best,
Nico

[[nis]]

I know this may sound obvious but you can turn fades off in either the prefs or individual clips.

I realise that it's a total PITA but at least we get a choice.

Having said that: when you duplicate a clip (and haven't disabled fades) the new clip is automatically
faded at the start and end. Etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Sorry for stating the obvious. I know this can be a total workflow killer as it's had me spending
hours "de-fading" my drumloops etc.

Tara,
Z.

That's a different function. "Fade on clip edges" has nothing to do with the safety fades that are applied on playback start and on arrangement loops.

Best,
Nico

[mr.adl]

If the safety fade annoys you, e.g. if your song starts off with a kick drum on bar 1.1.1, you might consider to move the entire arrangement by a bar to the right.

But if i do so, the track would start with silence.
I also tried moving the whole arrangement to the right and set the loop braces from that point on, but than the first kick sounds different again.

Also the whole sequencing / dragging other clips to the right position is more complicated that way, as it´s not like "i put clip nr.2 from bar 4 on" but "i put clip nr. 2 from bar 4.0.1 on" or something (hope you understand what i am trying to say)

[mr.ergonomics]

push +1 for a solution, this it really annoying.

one more example, play a loop with a kick audio sample on every 1/4. the first one sounds different. when you work on a loop in the arrange view it's really cumbersome. but for complex loops with audio snippets you need the linear arrange view, you just can't do it in the session view and I don't want do it in the session view because of this.

and when you record this loop you have this fade in your recording. I need the arrange to do complex sequencing and even record parts from the arrange sometime as audio (a kind of bouncing)

in live7 this is no problem. still waiting to buy live8 before such basics things are solved (therefore constantly check the live8 demo and just discovered this bug again)

[mr.ergonomics]

update: this doesn't happen when you use a sampler, like simpler, only when you use audio files. I guess live8 only does this fade on audio tracks?


I like to make my beats with audio files in the arrange and this is a quite common method. Let's find a solution for this and please keep up the dialogue. I could live with this 'bug' if I would know that it's only a matter of time that it's fixed.

[spiral]

this was driving me nuts too
glad I'm not the only one with this bug

love to lay down one hit samples with grid off and get a feel for a beat
the fade at start is pain

[[nis]]

I can only repeat what I wrote before. There is no alternative solution. Turning off the safety fades would result in clicks and pops, because there's no zero crossing in your waveforms in 99.9% of all cases. If you can think of any reasonable solution that avoids the clicks/pops AND keeps your transients alive, let us know. We haven't found any other solution yet.

and when you record this loop you have this fade in your recording. I need the arrange to do complex sequencing and even record parts from the arrange sometime as audio (a kind of bouncing)

Well, the safety fades are applied on playback start and on Arrangement loops. In most cases they are not really noticeable at all. If they are, start your playback a bit earlier and, if you use a loop, align your loop markers so that they don't line up with the kick to circumvent this problem. Not very convenient, I know, but not a complete showstopper IMO. You can also freeze the track and then drag and drop the frozen clip to another audio track. That's usually faster than re-recording, faster than bouncing and the freeze file doesn't contain the safety fades. Bouncing (rendering) does not contain any safety fades either.

in live7 this is no problem.

No, this is wrong. The safety fades we are talking about in this thread aren't new to Live 8. They have always been there.
Do not get them mixed up with FADES ON CLIP EDGES (!). The latter have nothing to do with this thread and can easily be turned off in preferences / removed from existing clips.


Best,
Nico

[Sarrova-Q]

I can also here this bug when I play a 4 bar clip loop in session view.
This is so annoying!

audio example: 4 bar kick loop, on the first kick of every measure you can here a crackle noise:
http://www.easy-share.com/1908479784/Kick Loop 4 bars bug.aif

Live 8.0.9

[mr.ergonomics]

Hi Nico,

first thanks that you keep up listening! That's really a thing I love about you guys.

I can only repeat what I wrote before. There is no alternative solution. Turning off the safety fades would result in clicks and pops, because there's no zero crossing in your waveforms in 99.9% of all cases. If you can think of any reasonable solution that avoids the clicks/pops AND keeps your transients alive, let us know. We haven't found any other solution yet.

But would an option for this in the preferences be an solution (saftey fades on loops on/off or something)? I guess it's not too much work to do it and everyone would be satisfied.
I know this "clicking" from cubase and I personally never had a problem with it. I see the advantage from safety fades, really I do, but in some cases the are worse than a clicking sound - especially on arrangement loops!

Well, the safety fades are applied on playback start and on Arrangement loops. In most cases they are not really noticeable at all. If they are, start your playback a bit earlier and, if you use a loop, align your loop markers so that they don't line up with the kick to circumvent this problem. Not very convenient, I know, but not a complete showstopper IMO. You can also freeze the track and then drag and drop the frozen clip to another audio track. That's usually faster than re-recording, faster than bouncing and the freeze file doesn't contain the safety fades. Bouncing (rendering) does not contain any safety fades either.

that is how it sounds: http://www3.speedyshare.com/data/432922 ... /audio.wav

That's pretty noticeable to me.
The first kick sounds really different (loop same kick sample, hear kick 1 and 5). I agree that it's not so noticeable in a big arrangement, but I think you can't take a big arrangement as a 'standard'.

No, this is wrong. The safety fades we are talking about in this thread aren't new to Live 8. They have always been there.
Do not get them mixed up with FADES ON CLIP EDGES (!). The latter have nothing to do with this thread and can easily be turned off in preferences / removed from existing clips.

1. Ok, but why does this happen in live8 and not in live7 (just rechecked it)?
2. And why doesn't this happen when I use simpler?
3. Or do I really mix things here?





> again, result from 'audio' samples in arrange view in live8:
http://www3.speedyshare.com/data/432922 ... /audio.wav


> result from the same sample in simpler in live8 (in live7 you get this too when you use audio files in arrange view):
http://www7.speedyshare.com/data/274835 ... impler.wav

[filterstein]

Is this behaviour not a bit too much on the safe side?
Are there other daws that do this?
People have been using samplers for more than a decade, to my knowledge not a single sampler starts it's samples with a fade.
Also, this should be in the audio guide, since the first start is not true to what is recorded.

[davepermen]

how about giving the user options?

a) fade
b) don't fade
c) start the playback after the first zero-crossing. that way, no clipping occurs, and we won't lose much of the music for most waves.

maybe give options to fix it on a per clip basis, and use only b) ?

[Eloheim]

1. Ok, but why does this happen in live8 and not in live7 (just rechecked it)?
2. And why doesn't this happen when I use simpler?
3. Or do I really mix things here?

The fact that it isn't a problem in Live7 but he says nothing's changed leads me to believe its a bug. To me that doesn't make sense in all this.