Maschine Vs Stylus RMX Vs Ableton?

[OvertoneZero]

when editing notes in the plugin window, you have to make sure you double click to remove notes, not press delete, as it deletes the instance of the plugin.

Eh? I was like 'fine, fine, wtf'

That makes no sense

[Jekblad]

when editing notes in the plugin window, you have to make sure you double click to remove notes, not press delete, as it deletes the instance of the plugin.

um,i didn't say that.

that's prety weak you can't delete notes.... what else do you loose in VST mode, that's pretty much where i would rock it. You can still browse for samples etc?

[glitchrock-buddha]

Looking to get a new drum tool to help with beats. Based on reading and what not I have narrowed it down to NI Maschine or Stylus RMX but then I started thinking I should just pickup a PadKontrol and use Albeton build in instruments. Without demos it hard for me to see what the others are offering (I have watched the videos) thoughts on which one offers the most bang for buck? Should I just learn Ablestons instruments with PadKontrol?

Well I have all of the above tools and I'll try to shed some light for you. Firstly, to be honest I find Stylus and Maschine very different. Stylus is primarily based on premade loops that you can mangle into new things. Not so much a drum machine type thing like Maschine (although Maschine can do loops too). They have very different approaches and I quite like having them both. Stylus can be used as a drum machine, but it maps the individual samples differently across a keyboard. It basically maps them by general midi so you don't chose where the hits go. Consequently if you load multiple claps on different channels, they end up on the same key. I'm not entirely sure if this is changeable though, since I don't use the kit mode very much. Using loops is fun when you need inspiration and you want to start with something rhythmic that you can just play with and turn into something completely different and unrecognizable. But it's omething everyone will use differently. I like for extras, layers of weird percussion over beats I make, or fills and rhythmic loops that I wouldn't end up with doing straight sample sequencing or playing.

Maschine on the other hand is quite the opposite. Less tools for messing up a loop, but very quick with sampling directly into it or loading your own samples. It's also a blessing for those of us who don't want to use the mouse very much (I use it at work all day!). So it's more like using a groovebox. It's quite fun to sequence actually and the pads are good fun to play.

I think a closer comparison to using Maschine would indeed be a padKontrol or akai MPD32 and Live's drum racks. Live's Drum Racks are the ultimate in terms of versatility because you can use ANY instrument device or plug-in, both as a sound source in a cell and for effects. The difference is that it's totally mouse dependant of course and it also has an interface that you may not enjoy using as much as something like Machine. While I love the Drum Rack concept, I rarely like to work in the tiny little rack area. It's not bad, but I do like using Maschine because I can create and load Kits with the hardware and everything is instantly mapped out to the hardware. It's not quite as good as it will be soon with the next update as a plug-in, since midi can't control the patterns in it (only program change), but that will make a huge difference. Other than that, it's pretty much the same as a plug-in as standalone. I'm not too usre what Dr.X is getting to. It works just fine as a plug-in. But it will have much better integration with the 1.1 update.

And obviously you can't change the tempo or start sequences from Maschine when you have it synced as a plug-in, but that's how all plug-ins work. You control tempo and start/stop with ableton. Everything else works the same. How else could it be? This is how it should be. And I can't say I care that you have to double-click to erase a note rather than hit delete. In fact I've never noticed before because I always do everything from the hardware, which works exactly the same in plug-in mode.

But to the OP, I think unfortunately you have to take more time to decide what you want until you know what will suite your own style best. It's a very personal thing. Maschine = Full hands on control, Drum machine style patterns, recording and sequencing, quick sampling, kit building etc. Stylus RMX = primarily loop mangling and experimentation starting with rhythms and with a cool library (but also some decent kits, just less flexible, especially with loading custom sounds). And ableton Drum Racks + PadKontrol = Highest flexibility but not a fully integrated hardware/software combo like Maschine.

I like them all.

[glitchrock-buddha]

that's prety weak you can't delete notes.... what else do you loose in VST mode, that's pretty much where i would rock it. You can still browse for samples etc?

See my post above. You can delete notes just fine. You can do absolutely every function from the hardware or the software, in standalone or plug-in mode. If you don't have the hardware, of course you can still delete notes. It's a friggin' double click on the note. That's all. Everything's the same in plug-in mode. I have no idea what these guys are talkin' about. Seriously. Why would anyone not want it synced and have the start/stop and tempo controlled by the set that it's in?

[Winterpark]

can i clarify, my post was only pointing out 3 things that were vaguely annoying.

the ability to press play and set the tempo with the knob could be kinda cool if it worked globally within Live... like a control surface.. but whilst in "Maschine Mode", not MIDI mode.

i dunno... it has pros and cons.

and the double clicking to delete, instead of pressing delete is slighty more annoying, only in that it has caught me out a few times, and i have to press command z....

but really these things are very, very minor, and that was the intention of my post.

I really, really like Maschine. It's work flow is great, and really easy to come up with quick and interesting stuff.

[starving student]

Glitchrock how quick is the sampling of raw material + editing= meaning creating loops, truncating them, and slicing them up.

2. when slicing loops does it default to 16 slices or is it how ever many you want?

3. can you choose not to send the slices to the pads when you slice and can you load
the slices to any pad that you want?

4. can you have a different effect on each pad and can you use vst efx with-in maschine?

5. how easy is it to resample with effects with=in maschine

6. how easy is it to resample loops that you're playing from maschine into Live and through lives effects back into maschine (as a sample) so that you could slice samples with added live/vst effects?


thanks in advance for any help

[glitchrock-buddha]

am - cool man. I agree it would be awesome to be able to control tempo and start from maschine in plug-in mode. It's just that as a plug-in, I'd never expect that. And the delete thing, ya it's always tricky with plug-ins about just how much they should steal keystrokes from a host. For example someone might have a key-command in a host they use all the time, and all of a sudden they realize it doesn't work with a certain plug-in open, which would be even worse than this scenario. I think generally Maschine is pretty smart with knowing when to take key input, for typing a track name for example, at which point delete does work. It's just not meant to for sequenced notes I guess. It could be worth suggesting on the Maschine forum though, who knows it might be possible. If not, there must be a good reason.

Glitchrock how quick is the sampling of raw material + editing= meaning creating loops, truncating them, and slicing them up.

2. when slicing loops does it default to 16 slices or is it how ever many you want?

3. can you choose not to send the slices to the pads when you slice and can you load
the slices to any pad that you want?

4. can you have a different effect on each pad and can you use vst efx with-in maschine?

5. how easy is it to resample with effects with=in maschine

6. how easy is it to resample loops that you're playing from maschine into Live and through lives effects back into maschine (as a sample) so that you could slice samples with added live/vst effects?

Hey man,
1. Sampling is pretty quick I would say. Truncating is easy, you get a little graphic on the LCD or you can use the bigger one on the computer screen. It's as fast and easy as any software really.
2.Can't remember right now (Not at home and sorry I don't sample much).
3. Yes, you can either have a loop on a single pad in which case slices can be assigned over a chromatic keyrange (Every pad can be played pitched across the keyboard actually if it isn't sliced) or you can send slices to individual pads.
4.You can't use VST effects within Maschine, but it has quite good effects though. You can have 2 effects per pad, not including sends (you can route any pad to the master as well as to any two other pads, which can be used as send effects). You also get two effects for each group (there are 8 groups which each have 16 pads).
5.Easy.
6.Haven't done but that doesn't seem hard. Though you'd probably find most effects you're looking for inside Maschine. Even Grain Delay!

[danzel]

i have been telling myself i don't want a maschine since it came out.. but i think i might be lying.
I had an unexpected job interview yesterday, if i hear good news i might just get one of those bastards

[DrXparaMental]

that's prety weak you can't delete notes.... what else do you loose in VST mode, that's pretty much where i would rock it. You can still browse for samples etc?

See my post above. You can delete notes just fine. You can do absolutely every function from the hardware or the software, in standalone or plug-in mode. If you don't have the hardware, of course you can still delete notes. It's a friggin' double click on the note. That's all. Everything's the same in plug-in mode. I have no idea what these guys are talkin' about. Seriously. Why would anyone not want it synced and have the start/stop and tempo controlled by the set that it's in?

Again this is a misunderstanding of what I stated, and frankly, that's probably more my fault than yours. What you are claiming is only true if you are operating Maschine directly as your ONLY control means over itself with respect to it's functions. When utilizing a primary external controller for remote "hands off" operation of the Maschine itself during a performance, you loose a ton if you are looking to remotely control it as a plug in within Live. That's a fact. Maschine as a device is about a LOT more than beats. I state this with respect to access of NI's core and it's sample features which Maschine is designed to function in tandem with. Just because you are not familiar with my insanity, doesn't mean it does not exist. In this case absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

As I stated, for typical DJ beatbox stuff it's fantastic, but don't tell everyone that it's the same in plug in mode as it is stand alone with respect to all applications because that is NOT true. I believe you may have just not experienced this type of completely "out of the box" approach. That's OK because 98% of it's users will never either.

It's also not correct that Stylus is made to function with just pre-made loops either. That's just one of the commercially advertised intentions. It's functions allow the user results that generate a level extreme random outcome both in process and access. Now Maschine on the other hand is extremely predictable because it's designed to be a programmable beat box and sampler. Either device relies on either user or factory input of course, but stylus can process and access samples and beats in a manner that Maschine couldn't even begin to.

This is my point in a nut shell. Maschine is a killer device if you are using it to play beats in a computer facilitated DJ set or even in a preprogrammed percussion live performance set, but if you are looking to access it within Live as a VST multitimbral instrument that allows you flexible external midi control over it,and more importantly "through it", it won't happen. Stylus is a MUCH better conduit and far more diverse on and of it's own process capabilities. With respect to external midi control apart from the proprietary NI controller itself, Maschine as a plug in within Live is does not offer nearly the access to your sequencer that Stylus will easily allow. *It's just not designed with that type of diversity in mind. Most likely neither is Stylus but it just happens to work for us sideways thinkers.

*I know this because my friend and I called up NI and they stated the fact to us. In their words, "it's not meant to do that".

In my communications with Eric Persing he stated that he had never thought of or imagined some the crazy stuff I was doing with Stylus but he stated that it sounded really cool to him nonetheless.

We still use Maschine a GREAT deal and it in fact it can be heard on some of the material I presently have on the myspace page. Maschine sounds incredibly wonderful as does ALL NI technology. I love their synths and own most of them. It's just that, as I stated before, for my own SELFISH reasons alone, Maschine is just not nearly as cool as RMX IMO.

I will say this, RMX is a DEEP program that very few people I have communicated with even begin to know or play with the depth of.

[danzel]

I don't have Stylus or Maschine, i have Ableton obviously...
I've seen a few threads with a similar theme to this and i think that using 'vs.' in the thread title can really bollocks things up.
We could all debate 'Reaktor VS. A Drum Kit' and argue the good points of each but why do different things have to be vs.? its daft

[glitchrock-buddha]

Ah ok, I think I see what you mean Dr.X. Yes, the Maschine software can't be controlled from other hardware like it can be with it's own hardware. As in, you can't midi map it's parameters to other generic controllers. I say currently because look what happened with Kore. Eventually they made it controllable from any midi controller.

I don't think to much on this current limitation though. For one the maschine controller on it's own is also a great controller to use with something like Drum Racks or Ableton clips. Then when you use it with it's own software it's totally self-contained. So there's two great things you get out of it. But I'll agree, they could make it more usable from generic midi controllers and I'm sure they will. Even the 1.1 update will add some great things in this regard like patterns responding to midi rather than just program change.

And while Stylus is certainly very deep, I think it is very worth noting that while you can load your own loops, you must first recycle them and then import them in the separate app to make them stylus loops, along with other limitations like only making folders of 60 or so (can't remember exact number) loops at a time in the user loops. Plus other things like no editing of the waveform etc. It's not exactly great for quick custom imported loops. And can you even use your own single samples in Kit mode? I didn't think you could but I don't know. So in that respect Maschine really does beat it for your own material. especially because you can record straight into it.

[DrXparaMental]

I don't have Stylus or Maschine, i have Ableton obviously...
I've seen a few threads with a similar theme to this and i think that using 'vs.' in the thread title can really bollocks things up.
We could all debate 'Reaktor VS. A Drum Kit' and argue the good points of each but why do different things have to be vs.? its daft

I think that has more or less been the finding here. They are very different from one another and there really is not a "best". But I think it's important to expound on the differences.

[danzel]

I think that has more or less been the finding here. They are very different from one another and there really is not a "best". But I think it's important to expound on the differences.

indeed no reason not to have a mass-debate, just an observation on the vs. format like 2 pieces of gear are gonna wrestle

[glitchrock-buddha]

I think that has more or less been the finding here. They are very different from one another and there really is not a "best". But I think it's important to expound on the differences.

I didn't say that.
But I agree anyways.

[DrXparaMental]

And while Stylus is certainly very deep, I think it is very worth noting that while you can load your own loops, you must first recycle them and then import them in the separate app to make them stylus loops, along with other limitations like only making folders of 60 or so (can't remember exact number) loops at a time in the user loops. Plus other things like no editing of the waveform etc. It's not exactly great for quick custom imported loops. And can you even use your own single samples in Kit mode? I didn't think you could but I don't know. So in that respect Maschine really does beat it for your own material. especially because you can record straight into it.

Kore, not "core" as I put it. My bad.

You are correct about Stylus being file type finicky, but after all, REX now works awesome in Live. (so what!)

Recycle and the Sage converter are really not *that* bad. I mean, recycle is a pretty cool mangling tool in and of itself and it's a wonderful introduction to slicing.

No, Stylus is not a program designed to compose beat by beat drum parts, although with edit groups you can tediously do just that I believe. That however would be a total waste when laid out beside the efficiencies of Drum Racks/Impulse, Maschine or BFD2.

I think that Stylus was really designed to be used on the fly. At least it seems that way.

Can Maschine be used at all as a multitimbral program in Live?