Ableton Forum

gjm wrote:A major scale works exactly the same do re me fa so la te do. Fundamental vocal warm up. Its not a pentatonic scale.

That's solfege for Dorian mode on Do, guy.

stringtapper wrote:

gjm wrote:A major scale works exactly the same do re me fa so la te do. Fundamental vocal warm up. Its not a pentatonic scale.

That's solfege for Dorian mode on Do, guy.

he he... another reason why I just need to say nothing.

gjm wrote:

stringtapper wrote:

gjm wrote:A major scale works exactly the same do re me fa so la te do. Fundamental vocal warm up. Its not a pentatonic scale.

That's solfege for Dorian mode on Do, guy.

he he... another reason why I just need to say nothing.

Just yankin' your chain.

Actually much of what you're saying is correct, but of course you didn't write "Don't Worry Be Happy" nor did you work with Michael Jackson, so you couldn't possibly know what you're talking about.

But that's not to say that there's nothing to this. I believe there is. The problem is I couldn't cite this demonstration in an article as proof that "Everybody knows the pentatonic scale," submit it for publication in Ethnomusicology, and expect it to be automatically accepted by my peers as musicological (or even anthropological) canon. Real scientific study just doesn't work like that.

Wait, wait, I hear a response... "But it's muuuusiiiiic duuuude, it's not supposed to be sciiiiieeeeence, you're supposed to feeeeeeeeeeeeeel it, maaaaaan... yeah."

Yes music is meant to be felt, but scientific study is scientific study. Anybody on the internet can assert anything they want based on the whimsy of watching a video. Hey, even I got all warm and fuzzy watching the video. But does it prove "everybody knows the pentatonic scale?" No. Is it evidence that can be used for future study? Absolutely.

Besides, if people "know the pentatonic scale" do they only know that particular anhemitonic form of it? Are other pentatonic forms "known" by everyone? Where does the speculation end? By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds."

But it is very fascinating nonetheless.

stringtapper wrote:Besides, if people "know the pentatonic scale" do they only know that particular anhemitonic form of it? Are other pentatonic forms "known" by everyone? Where does the speculation end? By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds."

Would those be just major seconds or equally tempered? I actually agree with what you're saying. Really it's a matter of seeking out intervals and which intervals we have a natural tendency, if any, to seek.
I'd be willing to bet it's not our natural tendency to sing ET intervals.

stringtapper wrote: By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds." .

My Logic?? Not sure I suggested that.

All I suggested was that Bobby was a good 'conductor' and gave people Aural and Visual 'hooks' to prime their brains as to what to 'think' vocally. He is a good crowd manipulator. I assert that people fundamentally 'know' stuff musically, but I dispute that 5 notes from a pentatonic scale vs the first 5 notes of a major is what "everybody just knows." The closer the notes the easier to sing regardless of scale construction. The further apart the notes are, the harder to hit them with accuracy for joe public.

scott nathaniel wrote:

stringtapper wrote:Besides, if people "know the pentatonic scale" do they only know that particular anhemitonic form of it? Are other pentatonic forms "known" by everyone? Where does the speculation end? By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds."

Would those be just major seconds or equally tempered?

Even better point.

scott nathaniel wrote:I actually agree with what you're saying. Really it's a matter of seeking out intervals and which intervals we have a natural tendency, if any, to seek.
I'd be willing to bet it's not our natural tendency to sing ET intervals.

Anyone who has worked with just intonation knows that there's a quality to the way chords sound in transition from one another over the course of a progression that is not captured in equal temperament. It's a kind of expansion and contraction, a breathing of sorts. A progression sounds like a living organism in JT, and the same progression in ET will sound static and dead in comparison.

gjm wrote:

stringtapper wrote: By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds." .

My Logic?? Not sure I suggested that.

All I suggested was that Bobby was a good 'conductor' and gave people Aural and Visual 'hooks' to prime their brains as to what to 'think' vocally. He is a good crowd manipulator. I assert that people fundamentally 'know' stuff musically, but I dispute that 5 notes from a pentatonic scale vs the first 5 notes of a major is what "everybody just knows." The closer the notes the easier to sing regardless of scale construction. The further apart the notes are, the harder to hit them with accuracy for joe public.

No, that was aimed at everybody else who was calling you a buzzkill, sorry for the confusion and poor wording.

gjm wrote:

stringtapper wrote: By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds." .

My Logic?? Not sure I suggested that.

All I suggested was that Bobby was a good 'conductor' and gave people Aural and Visual 'hooks' to prime their brains as to what to 'think' vocally. He is a good crowd manipulator. I assert that people fundamentally 'know' stuff musically, but I dispute that 5 notes from a pentatonic scale vs the first 5 notes of a major is what "everybody just knows." The closer the notes the easier to sing regardless of scale construction. The further apart the notes are, the harder to hit them with accuracy for joe public.

agreed, sans cynicism.

stringtapper wrote:

gjm wrote:

stringtapper wrote:

Actually much of what you're saying is correct, but of course you didn't write "Don't Worry Be Happy" nor did you work with Michael Jackson, so you couldn't possibly know what you're talking about.

But that's not to say that there's nothing to this. I believe there is. The problem is I couldn't cite this demonstration in an article as proof that "Everybody knows the pentatonic scale," submit it for publication in Ethnomusicology, and expect it to be automatically accepted by my peers as musicological (or even anthropological) canon. Real scientific study just doesn't work like that.

Wait, wait, I hear a response... "But it's muuuusiiiiic duuuude, it's not supposed to be sciiiiieeeeence, you're supposed to feeeeeeeeeeeeeel it, maaaaaan... yeah."

Yes music is meant to be felt, but scientific study is scientific study. Anybody on the internet can assert anything they want based on the whimsy of watching a video. Hey, even I got all warm and fuzzy watching the video. But does it prove "everybody knows the pentatonic scale?" No. Is it evidence that can be used for future study? Absolutely.

Besides, if people "know the pentatonic scale" do they only know that particular anhemitonic form of it? Are other pentatonic forms "known" by everyone? Where does the speculation end? By some of your logic I could have gotten up in front of everyone and only "jumped" two notes a whole step apart and then claimed that "everyone knows major seconds."

But it is very fascinating nonetheless.

Wa wa wait a minute bro, the idea isn't to tear this thing into critical bits as if you're refuting anything or me trying to put one over on g. It's about the totality of the event and demonstrating what's common in all of us in a way some find positively fascinating, like myself. Yer on about there's no proof . Nobody said it was scientific and never said it was proof of anything. And speculation about such things is the point in writing the post. Have a beer and lets hear what's fascinating about it already. Sheesh

knotkranky wrote:Wa wa wait a minute bro, the idea isn't to tear this thing into critical bits as if you're refuting anything or me trying to put one over on g. It's about the totality of the event and demonstrating what's common in all of us in a way some find positively fascinating, like myself. Yer on about there's no proof . Nobody said it was scientific and never said it was proof of anything. And speculation about such things is the point in writing the post. Have a beer and lets hear what's fascinating about it already. Sheesh

I admitted I got all warm a fuzzy from it!

me too - thanks for the linkage!

that was nice. and yes, the pentatonic scale is common to most musical cultures that I have got to know up until now.
It's not like that in Asia children songs would have quarternote intervals. Or do they?

stringtapper wrote:

knotkranky wrote:Wa wa wait a minute bro, the idea isn't to tear this thing into critical bits as if you're refuting anything or me trying to put one over on g. It's about the totality of the event and demonstrating what's common in all of us in a way some find positively fascinating, like myself. Yer on about there's no proof . Nobody said it was scientific and never said it was proof of anything. And speculation about such things is the point in writing the post. Have a beer and lets hear what's fascinating about it already. Sheesh

I admitted I got all warm a fuzzy from it!

Ok, cheers mate, but how about admitting why?

pepezabala wrote:that was nice. and yes, the pentatonic scale is common to most musical cultures that I have got to know up until now.
It's not like that in Asia children songs would have quarternote intervals. Or do they?

No, I was watching a program once which had singing from different cultures from all over the world and ask the question, what is the same about all this, it was that they all were using the exact same pentatonic scale.

Nothing amazing about the video, but some of the negative stuff mentioned has been complete nonsense though, Bobby has only given them a couple of notes to go on and the crowd is doing the rest by themselves and the stuff about being able to quickly tune in, it would sound a hell of a lot messier if that was the case. So less of the unnecessary elitist nonsense and maybe appreciate that it was just showing how natural music is to us all.

knotkranky wrote: It's about the totality of the event and demonstrating what's common in all of us in a way some find positively fascinating, like myself.

Hey KK, I am not dissing what went on in the video. It was a cool demonstration of leadership and group dynamics. All I am suggesting is that the reference to a Pentatonic scale be left out. The focus should actually be on how natural it is for humans to sing, and sing well, given some encouragement and the right conditions. Thats the bit I would suggest is common in us all. In this situation, Bobby was a great motivator, and I suggest that the success of the singing should be largely shared by him and then by the willing audience who were 'great sports' on the day.

Without trying to bring science back into it, I would have been interested in seeing the audience demographic, particularly their cultural background. Here in New Zealand, and Auckland in particular, we live in the largest Polynesian city in the world. The 'island cultures' have a strong emphasis on dance and singing for both male and female. In particular, the men have a distinctively different level of competence at these things than the regular european kiwi male, who is much more reserved. Its like they are all born with the ability to make wicked beats on big tin cans and hollow logs, sing in harmony and play the guitar, individually or in a group. I would echo other posters interest in seeing the results if done cross culturally.