Ableton Forum

crumhorn wrote:

prebentious wrote:I know we'd all like it to be included in the core program, but it can be easily done with max for live

Not so easy as you might imagine --> http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=822641#p822641

IMO what we really need is an option to record into clip envelopes. Maybe this could be the default when recording a clip in session view if arrangement recording is off.

That post is like 10 months old. Meanwhile modulation at audio rate has become possible.

hoffman2k wrote:

crumhorn wrote:

prebentious wrote:I know we'd all like it to be included in the core program, but it can be easily done with max for live

Not so easy as you might imagine --> http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=822641#p822641

IMO what we really need is an option to record into clip envelopes. Maybe this could be the default when recording a clip in session view if arrangement recording is off.

That post is like 10 months old. Meanwhile modulation at audio rate has become possible.

Thanks for the update. It's good to get some insight into what's been happening since the M4L announcement.

But I still would like the ability to record controller movements into clip envelopes without needing to pay for M4L.

jOop. wrote:I'm a Cubase user who has dabbled with Live but has never been an extensive user.

With that said, I've never been able to understand exactly what you guys are getting at. Can you give me a functional example of something that you can't do but would like to?

Here are a few functional examples:

1. Record a MIDI clip and let it loop.
As its looping, set Overdub to ON, and move the Send knobs around.
These movements are not recorded into a clip.
Movements of Live's own knobs, whether on Midi tracks or Audio tracks,
are not recorded into session Clips.

2. this being the case, you'll want to manually Draw the automation into a Clip.
Let's say for SEND 1...

You now arrive at the weirdest design flaw to ever happen in the DAW world:

The only way to Draw any automation for a Send is to first turn the Send knob
for the track all the way up.
Because for some reason, Live doesn't use the actual value of the SEND knob's position.
It uses a percentage of the SEND knob's position.

Ok, so turn up the SEND1 knob, and inside the Clip, manually draw in let's say 80%...
Great.
Now you have to go into every other Clip on that track and turn their envelopes for SEND1
all the way down, because by default, Live sets all envelopes of every Clip to 100%
It's definitely the most ridiculous idiocy to ever live inside any DAW.


functional example #2.
Open any virtual instrument, and start recording midi into a session Clip.
let the Clip Loop.....now start turning knobs on the virtual synth...
they're not recorded into the clip either.
Whereas Cubase, Logic, Sonar, etc, will record knob movements from
the virtual instrument, Live does not.

Live does not automate any controller movements from the virtual instrument.
Live does not Hear, or automate any controller movements from Reason devices.
Live uses PERCENTAGES, not actual values, of Send knob positions..

Live does not Hear, or automate any controller movements from Reason devices.

This has long been my biggest gripe about rewire of reason into live. You get all these snazzy synths and samplers from reason but you can't map any of their controls into live for automation!!!! But I think this is true for rewire of reason into all DAW's, no?? I remember reading an insane workaround for cubase a while back, that amounted to far more work than it was worth (which means a lot of damn work....)

yeah. lame.

-M

scientist wrote: the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated), how does it require a rewrite of the base code?

yeah that's what I've been wondering... the only possible answer to that is that they didn't want to do it as a plugin because 1. it is an inelegant way to do it as you said, and 2. because they knew M4L would make it easy to come up with a plug-in

I haven't tried the plug-in yet, but I do think with the current situation where there is no runtime but only a $299 program you have to buy then it's far from ideal

jasper wrote:

jOop. wrote:I'm a Cubase user who has dabbled with Live but has never been an extensive user.

With that said, I've never been able to understand exactly what you guys are getting at. Can you give me a functional example of something that you can't do but would like to?

Here are a few functional examples:

1. Record a MIDI clip and let it loop.
As its looping, set Overdub to ON, and move the Send knobs around.
These movements are not recorded into a clip.
Movements of Live's own knobs, whether on Midi tracks or Audio tracks,
are not recorded into session Clips.

2. this being the case, you'll want to manually Draw the automation into a Clip.
Let's say for SEND 1...

You now arrive at the weirdest design flaw to ever happen in the DAW world:

The only way to Draw any automation for a Send is to first turn the Send knob
for the track all the way up.
Because for some reason, Live doesn't use the actual value of the SEND knob's position.
It uses a percentage of the SEND knob's position.

Ok, so turn up the SEND1 knob, and inside the Clip, manually draw in let's say 80%...
Great.
Now you have to go into every other Clip on that track and turn their envelopes for SEND1
all the way down, because by default, Live sets all envelopes of every Clip to 100%
It's definitely the most ridiculous idiocy to ever live inside any DAW.


functional example #2.
Open any virtual instrument, and start recording midi into a session Clip.
let the Clip Loop.....now start turning knobs on the virtual synth...
they're not recorded into the clip either.
Whereas Cubase, Logic, Sonar, etc, will record knob movements from
the virtual instrument, Live does not.

Live does not automate any controller movements from the virtual instrument.
Live does not Hear, or automate any controller movements from Reason devices.
Live uses PERCENTAGES, not actual values, of Send knob positions..

It would be a step in the right direction if clip envelopes had different modes, effecting the way that clip envelopes are combined with session automation
eg. Multiply (like it does now), Add, Subtract, Override, Max, Min and Average.

Then recording clip envleopes in real time could be as simple - on the surface - as the following rule: If a clip is being recorded in session view then any control changes that effect the clip's track are recorded as clip envelopes in override mode.

alex.the.forge wrote:

scientist wrote: the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated), how does it require a rewrite of the base code?

yeah that's what I've been wondering... the only possible answer to that is that they didn't want to do it as a plugin because 1. it is an inelegant way to do it as you said, and 2. because they knew M4L would make it easy to come up with a plug-in

I haven't tried the plug-in yet, but I do think with the current situation where there is no runtime but only a $299 program you have to buy then it's far from ideal

Judging by hoffman2k's response to my earlier post It looks like they may have already done some of the necessary code changes. Which is why that MAX patch is possible.

hoffman2k wrote:

crumhorn wrote:

prebentious wrote:I know we'd all like it to be included in the core program, but it can be easily done with max for live

Not so easy as you might imagine --> http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=822641#p822641

IMO what we really need is an option to record into clip envelopes. Maybe this could be the default when recording a clip in session view if arrangement recording is off.

That post is like 10 months old. Meanwhile modulation at audio rate has become possible.

crumhorn wrote:Judging by hoffman2k's response to my earlier post It looks like they may have already done some of the necessary code changes. Which is why that MAX patch is possible.

I'm not sure what Ableton's official stance is on this now. But you can't argue that M4L isn't giving us advantages in the long run. Robert posted what he posted before he knew about live.remote~, which is an object that allows modulation at audio rates (Hertz).
But I don't think its fully optimized yet. Sure you can slap a few LFO's on some things. But what happens to the accuracy as soon as you got like 50 clip envelopes going at audio rates? And how many more need to stay connected in order to provide instant feedback? Hard to measure.

Live may still need to be rebuilt. I don't know.
What I do know is that Live is being improved to accommodate the crazy stuff we can pull off with M4L. And that the current incarnations of both applications are just the beginning.
I wouldn't be surprised if Ableton actually has some of the craziest features lined up for Live 9. Session Recording, Surround Sound, unfiltered MIDI...
Those who aren't to keen to see new devices should be in luck. Because I think M4L has everything covered from Analog bass to spectral delays. It even has a kickass dj EQ...

^^^
I would have to agree that the spinoffs from M4L integration should be very good for Live users in general.

I would think that M4L is something of a Pandora's Box for ableton developers - or a can of worms depending on you point of view. Lives internals will be exercised in new and unpredictable ways, bugs will be shaken out that nobody even knew were there. It's bound to improve the overall robustness of the program.