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Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:07 pm
by Dexes
Jabbon wrote: Contemporary Technology broke the equation of Offer and Demand, not only in music.
I ask myself who will be the new Maynard Keynes?
Partly disagree, it didn't break the equation, as it's still there, only there's too much on offer for the demand that exists. Rendering the equation useless for most who want to make a living based on the eqation.

And as you say, it's not only in music and it's not only due to people downloading stuff illegaly. It's more of a problem of and for the whole society. Take a look at the manufacturing industry, the people want to get everything cheeper, so the companies move their factories to asia, where labour is cheeper.
Look at the farmers. A few weeks ago there were protests all over europe because the milk farmers ended up paying more to feed their cattle than they earned from selling the milk they got from them.

But while the farmers were selling their milk for something like 7 cents per liter, you still payed around 1€ for the same liter in the stores (leaving 93 cents profit for "the industry") and in the end no one cared except the farmers (that is untill ten thousands went out do demonstrate, blocked the roads the politicians had to take to their meetings, and killed many fish by pouring milk into ponds to show that it was worthless to them).

Now if you lay that over on music buisness...15 years ago you payed 10€ (yes I know there weren't any € 15 years ago) for a CD with 10 songs = 1€/unit, (in the end the artists probably ended up with less than the farmers for 1 sold unit of their product).
Plus the major record companies still havn't given a satisfactory explanation why after the cost for physical media and distribution were taken out of the equation the prices per song are still the same for the consumer - the quality of the production, the price for the hard- & software used and the quality/effectiveness of the promotion deffinatly havn't gone up, if anything, they've gone down.

But with music now it's "the industry" who's been left out of the equation. Suddenly its all over the news, governments are making new laws ignoring civil rights to stop this "unjust behaviour" and in the end many artist are just jumping on the train, not realizing that they're standing up for exactly the same people who've been f*cking them for decades.

Think how much the artists themselves made from selling music 15-20 years ago. If the music downloads were offered for a few cents per song, the number of people willing to pay the artist for their work would deffinatly rise in comparison to today.
I know many people will now say "but the record lable does so much work. mixing, mastering, promotion..." True, but how much is that actually worth on the market?
A good song will be listened to even if it isn't mastered perfectly and a crap song is still crap even if the greatest mastering wizard in the universe does his best work on it. Besides even here on this forum there's several people who, with the technology available now, will do a better job at mastering than any major-lable-wizard could have done a few decades ago, for a price that every 10 year old can pay from his pocketmoney.

The only point that has much weight pro-recordlable is the promotion. But due to the complete oversaturation of free music available on the internet (whether legal or illegal), complete promotion across the globe, in all stores, to all groups of people anywhere and everytime creates costs that simply don't justify the benefit anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying this is good or fair. What I'm saying is that's music in an oversaturated capitalist society and in the end we will do no better than the thousand and thousands of industry workers who lost their job because the company moved to make their products cheeper for the consumer.
The biggest difference is that we (even those of us who's main income comes from it) are doing this because we have fun making music and letting other people enjoy our music!

One last question for those of you who actually bothered to read this far:
Ever notice how often the companies that complain the loudest about how much money they lost due to illegal music downloads, then a few days later proudly anounce how much money they made on their newest video game (sony) or on the cinema tickets for the newest film (universal...) which in the end is the same money the people saved by not spending it on the music they're listening to?

OK I'll shut up for now :mrgreen:

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:41 pm
by the_antagonist
big post man.


....

why do we use the ableton forum?


exsactly. lets just make some music and quit the bitchin

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:43 pm
by citizenchris099
the_antagonist wrote:big post man.


....

why do we use the ableton forum?


exsactly. lets just make some music and quit the bitchin

Lord knows if my boss would let me rock the lap top here at the cubicle I would and you people would never be bothered by me again.

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:46 pm
by LoopStationZebra
ethios4 wrote:4/4 holds the view that recorded music should be free of charge.
fxd. :P

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:53 pm
by citizenchris099
LoopStationZebra wrote:
ethios4 wrote:4/4 holds the view that recorded music should be free of charge.
fxd. :P
cuz lord knows no one is paying for that mess

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:00 pm
by evernaut
It's true that there is a lot more music 'out there' to choose from, but I'll wager that the ratio of excellence to mediocrity is the same as it ever was.

It's just that the traditional filters have been removed.

All the more reason to invest your energy in writing truly great songs and making sure you have a quality product, rather than needlessly adding to the mountain of crap.

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:24 pm
by Slightlydelic
i seem to remeber back when i bought vinyl from a little independant local shop, what they chose to stock was dictated by the girl who worked there, so what was available to me was filtered by her, filtered by the buying power of the store, filtered by the demand for any particular genre filtered by who got to it first etc.

so realisticly, the only thing thats changed is that i now have unfiltered access to whatever i may want. and i love that.

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:29 pm
by quandry
Slightlydelic wrote:i seem to remeber back when i bought vinyl from a little independant local shop, what they chose to stock was dictated by the girl who worked there, so what was available to me was filtered by her, filtered by the buying power of the store, filtered by the demand for any particular genre filtered by who got to it first etc.

so realisticly, the only thing thats changed is that i now have unfiltered access to whatever i may want. and i love that.
really good point, so true...looking on the brightside is good....it used to be quite difficult to hear samples of albums you might potentially buy, then the big rage was cd stores having in-house listening stations with headphones--that was huge. now we have the internet/itunes/myspace/etc. and can seek out and listen to samples of anything, gotta agree it's great to have the unfiltered access, and to be able to email links of good music to friends!

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:12 pm
by drako
Instead of buying NEW (records) for the last 10 years, i am buying music from the PAST.
There is so much to discover, it will take me a lifetime.
Started in 1982 to collect, screw those mp3's
On a personal mather, a mp3's is empty and not worthy to buy for me.
Damn do i love vinyl :-D

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:26 pm
by mojofunk
I'll quote Willie Nelson:
"Take care of the live show, and everything else will take care of itself"

Even if he never sells another LP, I'm guessing that the people who saw him at his last show in their town still remember, and would buy him a meal.

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:41 pm
by hacktheplanet
Da hand wrote:
the_planet wrote:You seem to forget that the majority of people who go to clubs don't go for the music.
That really depends on the club or the night. There are many clubs and nights where people do very much go out for the music.
True, there are. However, I'm talking majority here. At least in my experiences here in Chicago, most bars/clubs have play the same crap you heard on the radio 5 years ago. There are a few places that have great music, but those places are specifically showcasing the music and not just using it as background noise.

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:54 pm
by ethios4
citizenchris099 wrote:So I'm not sure what your point is. Are you arguing w/punks rationalizing stealing music or artists who want to freely distribute their art?
My argument is with people rationalizing theft. I'm totally down with artists distributing their music for free, or doing whatever the hell they want with it. You make it, you own it. In fact, I'm seriously considering making a simple little site like Nebulae's as a means of distributing everything I make for free. I really want to get music out there through labels, but I also don't like the restrictions that labels create. I think Tom Cosm has a great model also....he gives it for free, takes donations, and plugs into the community in a serious way.

Digital music is a grey area. If you walk into a store and steal beer, you're stealing something physical and unique. If you steal music you are only replicating data...nothing physical is taken. What about buying used CDs? You're paying for the physical copy, and yet the artist/label gets nothing at all. It gets complicated to sort out...

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:12 pm
by citizenchris099
ethios4 wrote:
citizenchris099 wrote:So I'm not sure what your point is. Are you arguing w/punks rationalizing stealing music or artists who want to freely distribute their art?
My argument is with people rationalizing theft. I'm totally down with artists distributing their music for free, or doing whatever the hell they want with it. You make it, you own it. In fact, I'm seriously considering making a simple little site like Nebulae's as a means of distributing everything I make for free. I really want to get music out there through labels, but I also don't like the restrictions that labels create. I think Tom Cosm has a great model also....he gives it for free, takes donations, and plugs into the community in a serious way.

Digital music is a grey area. If you walk into a store and steal beer, you're stealing something physical and unique. If you steal music you are only replicating data...nothing physical is taken. What about buying used CDs? You're paying for the physical copy, and yet the artist/label gets nothing at all. It gets complicated to sort out...
we're in complete agreement then. :)

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:40 pm
by leonard
ethios4 wrote: Digital music is a grey area. If you walk into a store and steal beer, you're stealing something physical and unique. If you steal music you are only replicating data...nothing physical is taken. What about buying used CDs? You're paying for the physical copy, and yet the artist/label gets nothing at all. It gets complicated to sort out...
no, but i'd quite happily take a carton of beer from some guy who was offering it for free from his garage, even if he got it from some guy who robbed a shipping crate.

Re: The Internet: All the music in the world and nobody’s buying

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:56 pm
by alex.the.forge
Actually, the sales figures show a HUGE jump in digital sales in the last 2 years - the new models for the industry are starting to really take shape now

don't give up