Ableton Forum

smutek wrote:

Bizon wrote:

Pitch Black wrote:I think you neglect the fact that Live is the industry-standard live performance software.
As long as Ableton keep their dominance in live performance, I would say their future is assured.

I would say this is definitely still a growing market as most DJ’s still elect to use more physical media like CD’s.

Just wanted to point out that Paddy wasn't talking about Dj's, I'm pretty sure he was talking about musicians who actually perform electronic music, live, as opposed to djing.

There's no doubt that there is plenty of great options for Dj's; traktor, serato, live, cd's, vinyl, or a combo of any of those are all options for Dj's to choose, but over the past few years Live has really become the go to tool for a lot of live performers.

I think that is what he meant.

Yes, exactly. I didn't want to get into a "what-constitutes-live-performance" sidetrack. Suffice it to say that if you want to play electronic music live - as opposed to DJ it - Live is the industry-standard platform for that.

What products do you consider mature?

Abletons Business Model isn´t broken. They released Launchpad and APC40/20 and i think they will release a lot of more Hardware in the next time. Live Lite comes with a lot of Hardware too......
They released Max4Live......

Take a look at Image-Line. Enough Cashflow with free Lifetime Upgrades since many years =)

lvehon wrote:What products do you consider mature?

ones that are stable without any serious design flaws..

Evengy wrote: Take a look at Image-Line. Enough Cashflow with free Lifetime Upgrades since many years =)

have you been to their accounts ? I don't know if it's working so much for them.
I don't see any dedicated 'fruityLoops' controller..(even in the horizon)
imageLine is about 5yrs older company than ableton.
yet they were pretty much thrown to the curve..
they mostly make vsts now...
(the only way they can keep selling to existing fl owners..)
you might even say they scored a 'self-goal' with their upgrade model..
as they need to invest more in developping stuff outside of their main product...
to make revenue..

but still this is all speculations.. no numbers .. nothing solid to bite into..

on the other hand... Ableton have a vision...
it can be felt with each upgrade that they are building towards a certain goal...
this is a major difference...
also...I think part of Ableton's model has always been to 'tease' their own users..
apparently there's always something (simple) missing...
my only gripe with it is that maybe in the last 2 versions (especially ..
they aimed too high.. and hit too low..
otherwise I share this vision..
of a computer as an expressive real-world musical instrument..

3dot... wrote:on the other hand... Ableton have a vision...
it can be felt with each upgrade that they are building towards a certain goal...

When already on page two, I decided to answer with just a simple "Bizon, you don't have a vision. They do, and that's the most important difference." Echo.

That's mostly what it's all about. Bizon, your lack of vision makes you believe there's nothing major Ableton could include/improve in Live after a short while. However, they do have a vision and a very creative team, and they will undoubtedly do so. There's so much happening in audio/music production right now, it would be downright hard not to come up with great ideas and be inspired, with a team like that.

(Also, I believe you are grossly underestimating the impact of integrated special products like Max4Live, already wishing for a Live 9 announcement because that would somehow be more sensible. But that's related to the main point above.)

Bizon wrote:

zalo wrote:i guess you are right
i am not going to purchase anything else from ableton
no point in throwing money into a sinking ship
cant thank you enough, i would have wasted a lot of money on ableton products

Dude, did you read any of my posts?
Nowhere did I mention that you should not be purchasing the software and certainly not because the company is going under. They would be sold off long before that happens.

Sarcasm detection fail.

Ableton have screwed up big time and they know it. That's why the "quality" post. It's a regroup strategy for certain but it's also an outright apology. It just been too much too soon for them. I don't believe for a second that Gerhard is some inhuman all knowing "eye in the sky" conspirator who anticipates everything and how it will unfold before it happens.

Live 8 suite was a huge mistake and like all businesses they will "pay" for it. The word on the real street and not just this forum is "don't buy 8" cause it's a mess. I know they never wanted that. Anybody that claims different is lacking in basic objectivity for sure.

I still can't believe how many times it's repeated over and over here. "Use 6." "Use 7." "You should know better than to use Live 8 in a live performance situation" What horse crap. What if you are a new user? What if you don't have the older stable versions to fall back on? Oh that's right, there is always craigslist or eBay. Right.

Ableton's business model? Gimme a break. Ableton is a company like any other. They're human beings. They messed up and are doing their very best to make it right.

Hahaha, there's a bit more to a business model than the features of the product and its release schedule. How many employees, how much they're paid, what kind of benefits, cost of production, cost of facilities, server costs, licensing fees, taxes, marketing costs, loan repayment, etc. If you think business is just about a product...well...you probably haven't run a business successfully before. So speculating about Ableton's future simply based on "Uhhh man Live 8 suxxx and they aren't releasing anything at NAMM!" is pretty dumb. But carry on....

Ableton 9 at NAMM?? Show me a stable version of 8 first and I'll be very impressed. Come on.

radialson wrote:Ableton 9 at NAMM?? Show me a stable version of 8 first and I'll be very impressed. Come on.

come over to my place. you'll be impressed i'm ready for 9, i have stable 8 since the betas

Ableton 9 at NAMM?? Show me a stable version of 8 first and I'll be very impressed. Come on

Hoofuckingrah to that - sort the frigging stability out

I honestly don't think they would even think of releasing Live 9 with all the issues with 8.

I think Ableton's business model is sound. The dedicated hardware controllers have set that. I've just got the Launchpad and for me that changes the game completely. Having been DJ'ing with Live for many years having more 'cheating' 'reading emails' comments than I care to mention. Even with a full faderox set up I still get it! (actually some of it is just jealousy after playing really throbbing sets )

Anyhow - the 'visual' elements of using the launchpad (or APC40) will change that completely and more and more dj/live performers will move over. Obviously you've got other (Traktor) options, but now the Serato Bridge is going that covers the Vinyl aspect as well to a degree.

Also MFL opens up the possiblities totally (even if it is too expensive for me )

I think any main threat will come from other DAW development into the same territory as Live. Ableton doesn't really have a direct competitor in the Live/DAW crossover, but I can see this changing. Sonar already has a sort of session view for firing clips.
In the long run this may well cause problems for Ableton unlesss they sort the stability of the program.

I'm not in the know about what a possible re-write is going to acheive (more session view automation etc?) but the next release should address this if it's neccessary.

Live will also get new buyers regardless of any stability issues as the magazine reviews very rarely pick up on these. I think Live 8 got 10/10 in Comp music ot Future music, which given the issues and things that just didn't work (looper) was laughable.

You could well be right about a buy up by a bigger company. After all money talks. This could be a good thing as more funds would be available for development.

...

To me Ableton nowadays is running against itself. It sold an idea that couldn't reach leaving stability and some dissapointing users in the way. In the other side open sources communities has been ripped off and now they are working for reversing LiveApi for full possibilities access.

About money... Live 8 is a bit overpriced and there are some solutions growing up in the market... maybe not so stable as Live... 7, of course.


Just my2cents.

...

3dot... wrote:on the other hand... Ableton have a vision...
it can be felt with each upgrade that they are building towards a certain goal...
this is a major difference...
also...I think part of Ableton's model has always been to 'tease' their own users..
apparently there's always something (simple) missing...
my only gripe with it is that maybe in the last 2 versions (especially ..
they aimed too high.. and hit too low..
otherwise I share this vision..
of a computer as an expressive real-world musical instrument..

Interesting points in your posts. Looks like you actually understood my original post.

I am not here to attack anyone or the company, I just wanted to bring up a point of discussion and hear others opinions.

Its pretty amazing how this is such a hot topic with some hot heads on this board. Its like I was insulting your pretty but not so stable sister. To you, I say relax!

Reading the last few points it is clear to see that people stopped reading any of the comments other than maybe the first. For instance:

radialson wrote:Ableton 9 at NAMM?? Show me a stable version of 8 first and I'll be very impressed. Come on.

Actually, I dont think you even read the first one.