OT: Where non-Americans get to vote - Please have your say!!

[d2]

Mate, sorry to disappoint you but well read and educated means you haffta know stuff.

Oh, I'm not disappointed at all ... I'd happily compare reading lists with you anytime.

Re: "haffta know stuff" ... isn't this just code for "you have to agree with me or you are obviously thick-headed" ?

Perhaps you could better make your case by detailing some matter of fact of which I seemed ignorant, which caused you to make your "astonishingly thick" comment?

If it's just a matter of opinion ... fine. I guess I won't be at the top of your Christmas card list.

[hitherto]

I think you miss the point. You talk about issue's only looking back a century.
Take a look further back in history. America is a land based on war ever since some Europeans dicided to start a new land. And so they did.

From the first day of america's exsitense till now it has been in war all the time. They live off it and by it. The world wars where no exception for them.

HAHAHAHAHA....what a rediculous rationalization. As if Europeans have not been at war for centuries.

Europeans have been at war since the begining of thier existence. Don't try to claim that it is the US that causes these wars. The majority of the wars the US has been in were caused by Europeans.

[hoffman2k]

I think you miss the point. You talk about issue's only looking back a century.
Take a look further back in history. America is a land based on war ever since some Europeans dicided to start a new land. And so they did.

From the first day of america's exsitense till now it has been in war all the time. They live off it and by it. The world wars where no exception for them.

HAHAHAHAHA....what a rediculous rationalization. As if Europeans have not been at war for centuries.

Europeans have been at war since the begining of thier existence. Don't try to claim that it is the US that causes these wars. The majority of the wars the US has been in were caused by Europeans.

I was trying to state that the people who formed america are the same kind of people waging war in europe.
And it's about time people like you start to see that there are driving forces operating in the background.it's those that need to be tackled down.
not resourcefull middle eastern country's.

[Fingers]

Oh, I'm not disappointed at all ... I'd happily compare reading lists with you anytime.

Compare reading lists? What is this, Good Will Hunting? Nothing annoys me more than someone who thought he was going to get away with preaching half-arsed nonsense to what he hopes will be an ill-informed audience discovering he's not going to get away with it and starting to list the books he read and completely sidestep his original witterings. So you're a Francis Fukuyama fan. We're all very impressed.

[hitherto]

hitherto wrote:
Quote:
I think you miss the point. You talk about issue's only looking back a century.
Take a look further back in history. America is a land based on war ever since some Europeans dicided to start a new land. And so they did.

From the first day of america's exsitense till now it has been in war all the time. They live off it and by it. The world wars where no exception for them.


HAHAHAHAHA....what a rediculous rationalization. As if Europeans have not been at war for centuries.

Europeans have been at war since the begining of thier existence. Don't try to claim that it is the US that causes these wars. The majority of the wars the US has been in were caused by Europeans.


I was trying to state that the people who formed america are the same kind of people waging war in europe.
And it's about time people like you start to see that there are driving forces operating in the background.it's those that need to be tackled down.
not resourcefull middle eastern country's.

I have totally missed your point. I was just trying to show you that your point is a moot one. People have always been at war, there has always been conflict.

Please explain what "people like me" (since you know me so well), need to start to see.....I don't understand you...thanks

[Martyn]

BTW, I've got my passport, can I come stay with you guys?

Yeah man, anytime. People with their eyes actually open are always welcome round my house.

Can't quite believe some attitudes on this thread but unfortunately I'm not that surprised

"thou shalt not kill"

"do unto others as one would have done unto oneself"

"turn the other cheek" etc

And I'm not the slightest bit religious! That seems like pure barefaced logic to me, and all sadly lacking from the 'virtues' of people claiming christian attitudes before violating EVERYTHING that is supposed to stand true to the teachings of a man they called Christ.

You might even call it 'anti' christ if you want.

Bloody hell I call it, that's what we are all bringing to this earth. Killing in the name of peace and freedom.

It's all very, very, very sad indeed.

[d2]

Oh, I'm not disappointed at all ... I'd happily compare reading lists with you anytime.

Compare reading lists? What is this, Good Will Hunting? Nothing annoys me more than someone who thought he was going to get away with preaching half-arsed nonsense to what he hopes will be an ill-informed audience discovering he's not going to get away with it and starting to list the books he read and completely sidestep his original witterings. So you're a Francis Fukuyama fan. We're all very impressed.

Well, it was a considered response to your intimation that I didn't "know stuff", or perhaps that I am not "well read and educated". Now you seem to be denigrating reading and education.

Or is it perhaps only those who agree with you are allowed to consider themselves something other than a complete boob? Nice approach if you want to peddle conspiracy theories or some wacky new religion. (Someone should have informed you that rectitude is no excuse for erudition.)

You state the opinion that I'm "preaching half-arsed nonsense". Great, you are well entitled to express that opinion, but is the repeating of some similar slight over-n-over-n-over supposed to give it some great weight? Or do you simply have nothing substantive to say?

Nothing annoys me more than someone who has nothing to offer in rebuttal but some form of "oh yea? well I think you're stupid!" Rather than escalating your expression of annoyance, you might do better to actually form an argument.

Please impress me with your vastly superior logical skills and encyclopedic command of the particulars. Afterall - shucks - I's jist a dum Amerkin a waytin fer to be larned sumthin fum yoose Yoo-row smart guyz.

[Martyn]

Go over and show all your wonderful books and your university certificates to that little kid who just lost his entire family and now also has no legs left. Go and tell him about the american dream where the good guys always win (like vietnam) and where he can watch gameshows on tv and get arrested for skateboarding on the sidewalk.

And he will kneel before you and say thankyou oh holy warrier, thankyou for liberating me and my family so I can skate (with no legs) on the sidewalk and listen to my ipod.

No. He'll most likely be sooooooooo filled with HATE that in 15 years or more, he and lots of others will be planning and recruiting the next wave of much more organised terrorism.

And so it continues, reap what you sow!

[Fingers]

Well, it was a considered response to your intimation that I didn't "know stuff", or perhaps that I am not "well read and educated". Now you seem to be denigrating reading and education.

Or is it perhaps only those who agree with you are allowed to consider themselves something other than a complete boob? Nice approach if you want to peddle conspiracy theories or some wacky new religion. (Someone should have informed you that rectitude is no excuse for erudition.)

You state the opinion that I'm "preaching half-arsed nonsense". Great, you are well entitled to express that opinion, but is the repeating of some similar slight over-n-over-n-over supposed to give it some great weight? Or do you simply have nothing substantive to say?

Nothing annoys me more than someone who has nothing to offer in rebuttal but some form of "oh yea? well I think you're stupid!" Rather than escalating your expression of annoyance, you might do better to actually form an argument.

Please impress me with your vastly superior logical skills and encyclopedic command of the particulars. /b] Afterall - shucks y'all - I's jist a dum Amerkin a waytin fer to be larned sumthin fum yoose Yoo-row smart guyz.

Don't mix up your Brits. I didn't say anything about you not being well-read or educated. You clearly are, because you're spewing verbal diaorrhea left right and centre (sorry, right, far right and further right). In fact I'd bet you're still a student.

Anyway, you're certainly educated enough to check who posted what before you roll out the impressive lines. People who use phrases like "considered response to your intimation" and "rectitude is no excuse for erudition" tend to be the same people who prove the maxim that a little education is a dangerous thing.

And don't come out with the dumb American crap either. I didn't, you shouldn't, because it's your get out of jail card - the suggestion that I'm disagreeing with you because I'm a racist. End of story.

Hang on - "rectitude is no excuse for erudition"? This is a mickey-take, isn't it? Nice trolling. I can't believe I wasted my time responding.

[Moonburnt]

My gastronomic rapacity knows no satiety. Gratuitious use of "big words" is fun - and a great way of commanding the respect of one's peers.

[d2]

Go over and show all your wonderful books and your university certificates to that little kid who just lost his entire family and now also has no legs left. Go and tell him about the american dream where the good guys always win (like vietnam) and where he can watch gameshows on tv and get arrested for skateboarding on the sidewalk.

Why would I do such a thing? But seriously, the premise of your post implies that things were "just fine" for that little kid, until the big, bad evil U.S. came along and made his life a living hell. Is that really a premise you want to defend?

Did you ever once complain about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis tortured and murdered by the brutal regimes that once ran their countries with an iron fist? Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question. Did you ever once make such a post in a public forum, or is your ire saved only for the U.S. in the process of liberating a nation? Don't tell me you did ... show me where.

By your logic, we should have let Hitler kill a few million more Jews rather than run the risk that some poor German kid might accidentally be injured in the crossfire.

No. He'll most likely be sooooooooo filled with HATE that in 15 years or more, he and lots of others will be planning and recruiting the next wave of much more organised terrorism.

I can't imagine him being anything but bitter regardless of the circumstances which caused his injury.

But I wonder how many people have to lose their lives, how many children have to have their eyes put out with soldering irons because dad was critical of the government, how many mass graves until you'll say "enough" and be willing to do what is necessary to make it stop.

And this is partly what I mean when I refer to some Europenas as "teenagers". You seem to have this strange idea that if you just look the other way it doesn't exist.

The world is full of brutal realities that don't evaporate just because you want them to.

Don't like war? Fine ... do something else. Combat AIDs or feed starving kids in Africa. Those are great ways to make a difference, but I'll bet you aren't doing anything but talking about that either.

No matter, the U.S. has it covered ... we do more for those causes than the rest of the world combined.

I imagine that if we discover a cure for AIDs and feed the entire world, it still wouldn't be good enough. Someone is bound to die from an allegergic reaction or food poisoning somewhere, and by your logic we should then be hated in perpetuity for medical or nutritional "imperialism"

But seriously, don't try to help ... it's too upsetting to you, and you'd just get in the way. You can go back to playing Nintendo, and let the adults take care of business.

[forge]

well we have our answer guys - these are the people that voted for dubbya.

The good ole american dream myth is actually still believed - i suppose this is where it was figured out long ago how much buying the media can help you build a population of blind patriotic idiots who mach around like zombies bleeting about completely fabricated historical events which fit neatly into the 'american dream' and perpetuate the good versus evil myth.

D2, what I would like more than anything is for people with the same beliefs as you to really look into things - to actually get your information from non-state sponsored sources and find out just how one sided and Biased all these silly ideas of american supremacy are.

First - start with a good dig into the second world war - no good old Uncle sam didn't simply come and save the day and every one lived happily ever after - in fact quite paradoxically given your argument, the USA was quite happy to sit back and grow fat off the profits of arms sales to both sides and weren't fussed by the 'evil dictator' (who by the way was more powerful than Saddam maybe to about the extent of George W Bush is to the mayor of Timbuktu). Look how quickly Saddam was thrown out of Kuwait in 91 - Germany in WW2 was probably as powerful as the USA and the Germans would have probably had a very good chance given it took Britain and its colonies, the USA AND THE USSR to beat them - and even then it wasn't easy. Look into things before buying this simplistic rubbish about 'we saved your ass'. It's school yard politics where we have to choose gangs and my gangs bigger than yours.

And the American revolution??? If you'd learned your history anywhere else in the world (where they might be a little less blinded by patriotism) you would also have learned that at the time - firstly the American colonies were paying something like 1 shilling in taxes compared to 18 shillings for the British at home - hardly 'oppressive'.

Britain was earning more from Jamaica alone than from the whole 13 states of America, and they had a real formidable force to contend with in France meaning if the British put all their efforts into saving a relatively unprofitable colony then they would have been exposed and vulnerable to the French who would definately have taken the advantage and this would all be academic. Add to that they had just discovered a new 'great southern land' (Australia) with apparently no-one of any significant military consequence (in other words an easy steal) then you can safely say there were alot of reasons to not be overly concerned at the Americans desire for independence.

But this doesn't make me puff up with pride and view Britain with rose coloured glasses - no, you'll find out one day that on the whole when the empire bubble bursts people become very pragmatic and cynical realists, seeing it a bit more in it's context. Just as intelligent and educated Americans do now against the strong tide of braindead patriotic zombies who are content the think little enough for Bushs astonishing asertions to actually be plausable and acceptable.

But the common perception Americans seem to have of it is not dissimilar to the Arabs in Afghanistan taking the Credit for kicking out the Soviets -
(which the Americans also took credit for - by propping up and funding Arab terrorists incidentally), when in fact it was ended because Gorbachev came to power and saw they had to completely change their policies accross the board or else the USSR would collapse and it actually had little to do with either the USA or the Arabs - it turned out he was too late and it collapsed anyway, but only because it was completely rotting from within and not because Reagan 'won the cold war'

The current American right attitude of 'we won everything' is simplistic ignorance - so by you buying it all you are perfect putty in the hands of the genuinely evil, biggoted businessmen who want to steal other peoples oil. (for gods sake look at it - how can you HONESTLY think it's anything else????) Even members of your own CIA largely mock the Neo-conservatives overwhelming need for a 'bogeyman' and some have admitted that the perception of 'Al Qaeda' as some highly organised network with cells all over the world simply doesn't exist.

Finally, of course you could learn alot about the realities of the middle east - firstly at how many of your current 'enemies' would simply not be significantly powerful enough to even raise an eyelid if it weren't for American money and weapons (just like with the Nazis BTW) Including Saddam.

If you're happy with your 'ignorance is bliss' naive attitude of 'good versus evil' then carry on, vote for GWB and salute to the flag and have your nice life until the baby boomers all claim their pension and the great USA bubble bursts, at which time you'll probably find it is the new (and strong contrary to the myths circulating) European Union that bails YOU out. Then we might finally get to hear the end of this pathetic, egotistic one sided drivel.

Bring it on.

[A DJ]

Go over and show all your wonderful books and your university certificates to that little kid who just lost his entire family and now also has no legs left. Go and tell him about the american dream where the good guys always win (like vietnam) and where he can watch gameshows on tv and get arrested for skateboarding on the sidewalk.

Why would I do such a thing? But seriously, the premise of your post implies that things were "just fine" for that little kid, until the big, bad evil U.S. came along and made his life a living hell. Is that really a premise you want to defend?

Did you ever once complain about the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis tortured and murdered by the brutal regimes that once ran their countries with an iron fist? Seriously, I'd like an answer to that question. Did you ever once make such a post in a public forum, or is your ire saved only for the U.S. in the process of liberating a nation? Don't tell me you did ... show me where.

By your logic, we should have let Hitler kill a few million more Jews rather than run the risk that some poor German kid might accidentally be injured in the crossfire.

No. He'll most likely be sooooooooo filled with HATE that in 15 years or more, he and lots of others will be planning and recruiting the next wave of much more organised terrorism.

I can't imagine him being anything but bitter regardless of the circumstances which caused his injury.

But I wonder how many people have to lose their lives, how many children have to have their eyes put out with soldering irons because dad was critical of the government, how many mass graves until you'll say "enough" and be willing to do what is necessary to make it stop.

And this is partly what I mean when I refer to some Europenas as "teenagers". You seem to have this strange idea that if you just look the other way it doesn't exist.

The world is full of brutal realities that don't evaporate just because you want them to.

Don't like war? Fine ... do something else. Combat AIDs or feed starving kids in Africa. Those are great ways to make a difference, but I'll bet you aren't doing anything but talking about that either.

No matter, the U.S. has it covered ... we do more for those causes than the rest of the world combined.

I imagine that if we discover a cure for AIDs and feed the entire world, it still wouldn't be good enough. Someone is bound to die from an allegergic reaction or food poisoning somewhere, and by your logic we should then be hated in perpetuity for medical or nutritional "imperialism"

But seriously, don't try to help ... it's too upsetting to you, and you'd just get in the way. You can go back to playing Nintendo, and let the adults take care of business.

unbelievable.....just unblievable...

i think the only reason USA "saved" Iraq is for its oil...

and why they invaded afghanistan ....oil again..and some drugs maybe

and having wars is making some people very rich ...so why stop the wars?

D2 realy thinks his country is all that...... i cant disagree more......

i believe their are things at work even D2 doesnt have a clue about or thinks thats left wing flashhy cards stuff

and why always say its left wing or some conspiracy theory?

i am not left wing , its so easy to dismiss it like that, and the proof is out there....

conspiracies dont exist..its always a lone Nutter like harvey....jees how stupid can u be.




feed kids in africa....FFS if u would spend a lil less on ur F***** weapons u could feed the whole off africa!!!!

moron


and AIDS ...a terrible disease...how did it come here?

some people made this world a unsafe place...and it aint the muslims


on the WW2 topic......... werent the Nazis financed by some american banks?

and maybe if USA could have done more sooner...that would have saved a lot off lifes

[Martyn]

[quote="d2]But seriously, don't try to help ... it's too upsetting to you, and you'd just get in the way. You can go back to playing Nintendo, and let the adults take care of business.[/quote]

For the record I'm a 39 year old that doesn't really play games, I'm pretty shocked that there actually people like you in the world, let alone partaking on this forum.

I'm not really sure what to say to all that that you wrote, do you really believe in what your country is doing? That it's really about liberating and not oil? Do you really not know that the US trained the Taliban when Russia was in Afganistan, when the US trained the torturers? I'm not denying that my country has a lot to answer for either, in our history we've had our fingers in a lot of wars too. I am not a patriot! I'd love to get out of this stupid little embarresing, has been country at the first opertunity to be honest.

Um, I'm lost for words really, no-one's going to change anyone's mind about such a thing on a forum such as this, so I guess arguing is a bit pointless. Some people are complaining on the forum about political threads, so I guess I'll 'butt out' now.

Have a nice life D2, cya round.

M

[Fingers]

Installing dictators and then eventually getting round to removing them again when it no longer suits you to have them in place hardly counts as liberation. The US funded, armed and overtly supported Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war, supplying him with, among other things, biological and chemical weapons. Another of its great contributions to the war effort was the shooting down of an Iranian air liner with the loss of nearly 300 lives - they mistook it for a fighter jet. Which just goes to show that 'friendly fire' is nothing new.

Such was the US's support for Iraq that the Iran-contra affair was a huge scandal - arming the enemy, no less. Where have I heard that before? The funds went to the contras, so not only were the US appeasing Iran and prolonging that conflict in their own interests, they were overseeing and paying for insurgent activities against a revolutionary government that had risen up against another of their favoured dictators.

None of this is conjecture, D2. If you live outside the 50 states, it is easily accessible in any encyclopaedia or even school history textbook. America is an isolationist country, so you can be forgiven for relying on domestic sources for all your information. You live in a democracy, so why should you feel the need to question such sources? But we live in a world where the USA's influence is all-pervading, and the effects of its actions are not so easily concealed from us. So please stop the reactionary, personal insults and consider the fact that no matter how well-educated and intelligent you are, if you've been lied to from day one, you cannot help but be deluded.

You accused me in an earlier post of being intellectually lazy. But I've got a suggestion for you. You have internet access, so start reading things that originate outside America. Set aside your fear that communism, Islamism, Europeanism or whatever else you fear may somehow infect you by reading it. Ignorance breeds fear, that's an old truism, but reading both sides of an argument breeds greater understanding. You'll see the spin and propaganda in each half of the argument, and hopefully be able to disseminate what are the undeniable facts from the two.

I'm not anti-American, but I am anti-Bush and anti-Republican. I have very good reasons for this, and it's nothing to do with any of the stereotypes you've trotted out with your juvenile Cleetus the slack-jawed yokel remarks. Bush is a religious crusader, claiming that he is trying to secularise and democratise the Arab world while he simultaneously does his best to turn the US into a neoconservative Christian theocracy. He is proud of his ignorance, which is unforgivable in anyone but particularly so in the president of the United States. He professes to be a regular honest-to-goodness down-to-earth guy, when he is in fact the spoilt son of a cruelly manipulative upper-class dynasty. He treats you all like idiots, and for some reason many of you (not a majority, but enough to fudge an election win on a technicality in a state run by his brother) love him.

Imagine he was a Russian, and his father the previous head of the KGB and Russian president himself. Imagine he'd fixed an election in Russia, with the help of his family connections, in order to use the country's resources to go on an orthodox religious crusade. Imagine he'd had close connections with the family of a man who planned an attack on Moscow. Which country would be at the head of the queue to liberate Russia from such a tyrant?