Ableton Forum

dum wrote:

spermcrapper wrote:

dum wrote:2 state solution = bullshit.


/THREAD

tired nihilist im-so-edgey-and-about-as-beige-as-a-rotting-turnip bullshit.

[BUZZWORD]

Just because I hate you and want you to die doesn't mean you have to take it personally dude. You really need to grow up.

H20nly wrote: The problem is... asking a "state" or organization to relinquish power = NOT FUCKING HAPPENING WITHOUT A FIGHT

I doubt there are too many examples in history of one side or the other going... "why don't we just give up all of what we stand for and try something new? You guys are in charge now."

Israel is more or less an example of that. Thing of course is IMO nobody looked the gift horse in the mouth when England "gave" the zionists Israel. It happens but not without some sort of political maneuvering behind closed doors that involves shifting of power etc. My contention has always been that it was a chess move on the part of the UK (the west in general), they knew dammed well that religious idealists tossed into an area filled with them would cause strife in the region. <- Divide and conquer, if the English didn't invent it, they perfected it.

dum wrote:2 state solution = bullshit.

Eh? not that it's the best solution, but it's more or less working in Ireland... at least for now.
Compared to Israel anyway, things are much calmer.

Machinesworking wrote:

H20nly wrote: The problem is... asking a "state" or organization to relinquish power = NOT FUCKING HAPPENING WITHOUT A FIGHT

I doubt there are too many examples in history of one side or the other going... "why don't we just give up all of what we stand for and try something new? You guys are in charge now."

Israel is more or less an example of that. Thing of course is IMO nobody looked the gift horse in the mouth when England "gave" the zionists Israel. It happens but not without some sort of political maneuvering behind closed doors that involves shifting of power etc. My contention has always been that it was a chess move on the part of the UK (the west in general), they knew dammed well that religious idealists tossed into an area filled with them would cause strife in the region. <- Divide and conquer, if the English didn't invent it, they perfected it.

hehe I always thought that the Brits did partly for kicks...
and partly because they had enough of what was going on here ..(plus no natural resources)
and might be that they thought that the Jewish settlement here would be taken over shortly after they 'left'..makes sense..
..reality is more complex than that..

I find this outline to be quite objective..
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch17jeru.html
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch23zsrl.html

get some popcorn... it's gonna be epic..

3dot... wrote: hehe I always thought that the Brits did partly for kicks...
and partly because they had enough of what was going on here ..(plus no natural resources)

Oil in the greater region though, the main reason for world interest in the area, destabilize the region with an influx of new people of a different religion, support and arm them, and you basically have a built in excuse to interfere consistently with the politics in the region, thus preventing a unified Ottoman or earlier empire from forming in the region again, = lower gas prices etc.

A lot of people believe that the original behind the scenes reason for going into Iraq first gulf war wise was destabilize OPEC, which was a consequence I hear. Seems quite reasonable to me, as Kuwait was going under OPEC pricing...

and might be that they thought that the Jewish settlement here would be taken over shortly after they 'left'..makes sense..
..reality is more complex than that..

See above, I see no indication these days of any specifically USA or UK intention to let Israel fall, in fact quite the opposite.
Quite honestly it's my feeling that fear is the main driving motivator that keeps average Israelis from stopping the nasty military actions. This fear that everyone is out to get you, even if those people are pumping money into your banks (UK, USA), or are incapable of really posing much of a threat beyond random disorganized attacks that have low body counts (Palestinian acts of terrorism).

Not that it's any different here, it's just less focused and all pervading in it's approach. I think the closest the US came was with that ridiculous red, yellow, etc. alert period after 911.

Thanks for the links, I'll get to them this weekend.

no natural resources ?
who needs natural resources when you've got chaim weizmann in the lab synthesizing acetone for the war effort.

How does "frank smitha" even utter the balfour declaration without mentioning Dr Weizmann ?
And those ad's next to frank smith's cherry picked take on recent history... "meet sexy arab girls now" ...lol. Like all reputable historians, he's peddling instant sexual gratification right next to his writing.


facepalming over here.

oh noes... he made medicine for the war ..that's horrible !

and...yeah I'd agree there are some unnecessary details in his descriptions.. but there are many details which are correct..
so... Historians have no merit to you either ...

it's a good read never-the-less..
I've read it and found it to be a pretty accurate documentation of the major chain of events... (at least to all that I know about this conflict.)
and without going much into rumors..

also a good starting point to read about the beginning of the Jihad movement in the ME..
as reaction "western"/secular influences that have been introduced into the region..(via Britain/Egypt/Lebanon/Israel)

3dot... wrote:oh noes... he made ammo for the war ..that's horrible !

corrected.

the ability to simply create cordite in a lab without the need to mine a resource the germans had cornered is not an asset you can gloss over, or even attempt to understate it's importance to the war effort. It was crucial, pivotal.

So Mr unknown Historian with his ''meet sexy arab girls'' advertisements is lying through omission by even referring to balfour without referring to weizman or the cordite.

Middle East discussions is war at the forum.

dum wrote:

3dot... wrote:oh noes... he made ammo for the war ..that's horrible !

corrected.

the ability to simply create cordite in a lab without the need to mine a resource the germans had cornered is not an asset you can gloss over, or even attempt to understate it's importance to the war effort. It was crucial, pivotal.

So Mr unknown Historian with his ''meet sexy arab girls'' advertisements is lying through omission by even referring to balfour without referring to weizman or the cordite.

yes... and ammo...he was head of the British national labs ...and greatly helped the west to win the war..
in THAT war... the Ottoman empire was defeated ..
in the next war.. his own son ..which was an fighter for the British army...was killed ..
as for natural resources.. labs are not considered to be...
Mr. Chaim Weizmann was an established scientist and public figure.. in the ranks of Albert Einstein..
which was following the long Jewish dream of returning to Zion,.after the long diaspora...
and felt that there is an opportunity to achieve this.. and he lobbied the Zionist ideal in houses of power..
(you need to remember that Jews were persecuted almost everywhere they were at that time in history..
especially Christian/Russian lands..)
he was a socialist.. (being Russian and all..you know)..and promoted peace with the Arab world..
he later contributed to Israeli science institution much...
...not really a secret figure ...or anything..


anyways... I highly doubt we got this land on account of Acetone...
what Acetone gave us is 1 writing by Balfour that first acknowledges the Jews idea for a state...
but Balfour wanted it to be in UGANDA !!! WTF?
he omits these details as well..
..I always thought of the Balfour declaration as being a British "stab" at the Germans as there were many Jewish citizens in the their regions..
waaay more than in Britain anyways..
he also omits the land-wars before that ...the Zionist land-buying movement.. and the unfavorable attitude towards Jews during the Muslim/Ottoman rule..

anyways... this essay starts at the end of WW1 ... and only gives a brief background to what happened before that..
only saying.. this land was Ottoman ruled ...
Jews were persecuted in other lands..(basically the reason for Zionism)...
in 1917 there was the Balfour declaration which angered the Arabs..(meaning the idea was established long time before that)
in 1919 Brits took power of Palestine and French over Syria/Lebanon...which also angered the Arabs..
background stuff..

the rest is pretty accurate.. as stated in the first post it is AN OUTLINE...
anyways...as you've "discredited" this dude,, I'll try and find you other sources when I can stomach it..
although I find most of this stuff accurate,, and we're not really in a court of law right now..

regardless of the political and historical issues the problem IS religion.

of course...it always was a "tribal" issue.

3dot... wrote:Balfour

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine....

derzai wrote:

3dot... wrote:Balfour

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

^^ note the date... a lot of water flowed under the bridge since then..
and there was probably never a time when it was free to all religions without prejudice...

but I do agree that religious freedom should be allowed..and free movement..
plus our current government might be the worst ever..
which doesn't help the Palestinian situation..

like I said.. at this point maybe some 3rd party leader could help out...
I'm actually pretty stoked that there is pressure on our government from the USA..
imo this thing needs intervention and persistence ..
not one of the current governments in the region can/is-willing-to do it ..