israel attacks gaza bound aid flotilla.

[Machinesworking]

meh.

The folks who planned the relief effort were morons. Or masterful manipulators.

Why weren't UN representatives on board? Why weren't members of ANY media outlet invited on board? How about the Red Cross? Would the IDF have boarded and attacked with a flotilla full of AP reporters? Prolly not. This was a calculated move. They fucking well knew that the IDF doesn't mess around. It is, after all, THE IDF, is it not? ffs.

What reporter would volunteer for that? Also, do you really believe that their credentials and political agenda wouldn't be questioned just as much as the relief workers?

Here you had an EPIC opportunity for a real statement and stand against oppression that could have been fully witnessed and documented and....once again...the opportunity is blown in favor of some sort of cowboy relief mission in which they knew some would die (in addition, the flotilla should not have had so much as a fucking steak knife on board.). They are banking on sympathy and outrage over those deaths,and they've gotten it - from those who were already sympathetic and outraged. Fail.

I think at this point with over 100 UN condemnations and only one country constantly voting against condemning consistently (USA of course), it's obvious that it doesn't matter how many statements against oppression are made, people will decide not to care, or be outraged.
Also, you're forgetting or didn't realize there was satellite video being sent of the event from the ship, until it was jammed by the IDF.
that, more than anything else is what's upsetting, modern war is fought behind a smokescreen. Oh look the IDF took video, yet jammed the "other" sides ability to do so, let's all take their word for it shall we?

[Machinesworking]

you sound as if you have lived there, no wait, you sound like everyone else who thinks he knows a shit about the problems down there.

i just said that i dont know a shit and its too easy to blame everything on the israelis.

303

I don't blame the Israeli people, or even the IDF grunts, I blame their government, and secret service.
Same with any colonialist style country, keep the people confused and scared, and you can get away with whatever you want to.

So you unilaterally stand aside in all foreign affair discussions or is it just this one that you think is too complex to understand?
Curious, because I think it's good to ask yourself if maybe you're doing so because you won't like the conclusions you'll come to.
Personally I like the jewish religion on an average better than muslim, and that's very largely because of the less oppressive nature of the religion on
the converts/ethnically born into people who practice it. So it's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that the more progressive
government and people are the ones who are causing the most harm in this situation. There are plenty of events historically where that is
the case though.

[oddtones001]

Machinesworking mentioned that the US has supported dictators in the past. Correct. Saddam was in tight with the US. Rumsfeld was the special envoy to Iraq. I love those pictures and the footage from the past where Rummy is shaking hands with Saddam. The US knew he was a shit head then, a brutal dictator who murdered on a regular basis. He was our boy right after the Islamic Revolution. He helped to keep Iran in check. When Saddam gassed his own people in '87, where was the calvary with the Iraqi Freedom banner back then? Their freedom meant nothing then as it means nothing now. It was about oil. You would think after all of this bullshit we could have brought some oil back, but there was the danger that the oil market would stabilize and there would be no good reason to jack the price of a barrel to $120.00 USD so that Exxon/Mobil, BP, and the rest of the gang could ass rape the US and Europe at the gas pumps. Throw in China's rise in petroleum consumption and you had a perfect storm to pull off this crime. No wonder the world looks at the US the way they do. "They hate us for our freedom" No former President Numbnuts, they hate us because our government is full of shit. Patriotism for me is the love of my country unconditionally, and the love of my govt. only when they deserve it. The gas Saddam used on his own people most likely had US serial numbers on the canisters and warheads. Mission Accomplished, Middle East destabilized for unprecedented oil profits.

[LoopStationZebra]

What reporter would volunteer for that? Also, do you really believe that their credentials and political agenda wouldn't be questioned just as much as the relief workers?

I would think that there would be dozens upon dozens who would jump at the chance; particularly since both sides of this conflict have been pretty rigorous at barring reporters over the past years. Reporters have died trying to get the story on the ground.

I think at this point with over 100 UN condemnations and only one country constantly voting against condemning consistently (USA of course), it's obvious that it doesn't matter how many statements against oppression are made, people will decide not to care, or be outraged.

Yes, but this was in act that occurred within international waters. Not in someone's backyard in Gaza; where shots of Palestinian fighters with automatic weapons or throngs of bottle throwing youth can be interspersed to show some sort of 'justification' or balance. There's a big difference. Apparently the relief effort didn't think so...

Also, you're forgetting or didn't realize there was satellite video being sent of the event from the ship, until it was jammed by the IDF.
that, more than anything else is what's upsetting, modern war is fought behind a smokescreen. Oh look the IDF took video, yet jammed the "other" sides ability to do so, let's all take their word for it shall we?

I often think of the Algerian battle for independence when it comes to Israel/Palestine. The Algerians struggled for years against the French; with atrocities committed by both sides. For most of the conflict, the French absolutely had the world media by the balls. It wasn't until the Algerians won the battle for how to use the media effectively that the tide began to turn in their favor.

This should have been a FULL COURT PRESS effort. With the world press invited to the proceedings at the dock before the flotilla left. Press should then have been invited onboard for the journey.

UN inspectors and/or reporters should have been invited to inspect the vessels to ensure that NO weapons of any kind were on board prior to departure.

The Red Cross has been demanding access to Gaza for YEARS but denied by Israel every time. They should have been invited as well.

Again, this was little more than a squandered opportunity. One calculated to elicite outrage and cries of revenge. The more I read about this, the more I'm convinced that it had little or nothing to do with providing actual relief.

[ikeaboy]

meh.

The folks who planned the relief effort were morons. Or masterful manipulators.

Why weren't UN representatives on board? Why weren't members of ANY media outlet invited on board? How about the Red Cross? Would the IDF have boarded and attacked with a flotilla full of AP reporters? Prolly not. This was a calculated move. They fucking well knew that the IDF doesn't mess around. It is, after all, THE IDF, is it not? ffs.

Here you had an EPIC opportunity for a real statement and stand against oppression that could have been fully witnessed and documented and....once again...the opportunity is blown in favor of some sort of cowboy relief mission in which they knew some would die (in addition, the flotilla should not have had so much as a fucking steak knife on board.). They are banking on sympathy and outrage over those deaths,and they've gotten it - from those who were already sympathetic and outraged. Fail.

There were reporters on board, here's transmission before communications were cut http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 67593.html

A Scottish Journalist for Press Tv was also on board and broadcasting until his communications were cut

Two Journalists from the Sydney morning Herald were aboard, Paul McGeough, an Irish citizen, and Kate Geraghty, an Australian.Other passengers include elected politicians from several countries, a Holocaust survivor and a Nobel Peace prize winner. They had to have known the risks and they did it anyway, call them cowboys if you want. I think they're exceptional people doing the most they possibly can with the limited resources they have.
Another ship from Ireland is on the way to Gaza now.

And in response to people who think we shouldn't discuss this:
I'm no expert and apart from information I get from dedicated friends, some of which have been to Gaza, I rely on the Internet for information. What am I supposed to do trust TV news? Google news alone highlights the extreme polarities in reporting and the twisting of perception. I trust the sources that tally with what first hand accounts I can hear and I use my common sense.
It's a mistake to think that you can't have an opinion on topics like this if you're not an expert. If that was a case only people with degrees in political science would be allowed to vote in national elections. "You don't understand" is just another way of spreading apathy. One way or another this should be talked about and why not here exactly?

[LoopStationZebra]

Incidently, I don't believe ANY press was present when the flotilla left. If I'm mistaken than I'd love a link to the stories.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle ... 193249.stm

^BBC and others were notified AFTER the fact.

fail.

[LoopStationZebra]

meh.

The folks who planned the relief effort were morons. Or masterful manipulators.

Why weren't UN representatives on board? Why weren't members of ANY media outlet invited on board? How about the Red Cross? Would the IDF have boarded and attacked with a flotilla full of AP reporters? Prolly not. This was a calculated move. They fucking well knew that the IDF doesn't mess around. It is, after all, THE IDF, is it not? ffs.

Here you had an EPIC opportunity for a real statement and stand against oppression that could have been fully witnessed and documented and....once again...the opportunity is blown in favor of some sort of cowboy relief mission in which they knew some would die (in addition, the flotilla should not have had so much as a fucking steak knife on board.). They are banking on sympathy and outrage over those deaths,and they've gotten it - from those who were already sympathetic and outraged. Fail.

There were reporters on board, here's transmission before communications were cut http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 67593.html

A Scottish Journalist for Press Tv was also on board and broadcasting until his communications were cut

Two Journalists from the Sydney morning Herald were aboard, Paul McGeough, an Irish citizen, and Kate Geraghty, an Australian.Other passengers include elected politicians from several countries, a Holocaust survivor and a Nobel Peace prize winner. They had to have known the risks and they did it anyway, call them cowboys if you want. I think they're exceptional people doing the most they possibly can with the limited resources they have.
Another ship from Ireland is on the way to Gaza now.

And in response to people who think we shouldn't discuss this:
I'm no expert and apart from information I get from dedicated friends, some of which have been to Gaza, I rely on the Internet for information. What am I supposed to do trust TV news? Google news alone highlights the extreme polarities in reporting and the twisting of perception. I trust the sources that tally with what first hand accounts I can hear and I use my common sense.
It's a mistake to think that you can't have an opinion on topics like this if you're not an expert. If that was a case only people with degrees in political science would be allowed to vote in national elections. "You don't understand" is just another way of spreading apathy. One way or another this should be talked about and why not here exactly?

Interesting, I hadn't seen that yet. Tnx.

But, again, a totally fruitless exercise. Hardly the world media event it SHOULD have been.

Did anyone think to call Anderson Cooper? That douche will show up at a donut shop if someone's reported a missing bear claw.

[ikeaboy]

edit: oh ok I see your new post

[3dot...]

War needs to be waged or military hardware doesn't get sold. And military hardware is one industry where the USA still reigns supreme.When there are major conflicts, major money is being made, and the taxpayer pays for it.

the other big player is Russia of course..
whoever the US doesn't arm.. Russia does.

[3dot...]

dude,
its very easy to bash the israelis all the time for everything. when you dont live down there. i mean israel is a sovereign state,

A sovereign state that hasn't played by the rules for a long time now, a rouge nation if you will.

what rules ? you think this is a game ?
the UN has made many mistakes in the past... surely you don't think we'll leave our fates in their hands

Let's face facts, the Israeli government and military have a vested interest in assimilating the territories

no ... they want out of the territories.. and nothing to do with them (Hamas controlled Gaza)
it's been 8 years since the army is completely out of Gaza..
the isolation of Gaza is a strategic move..
and humanitarian aid is passed through on a daily basis..
Gaza has another border.. with EGYPT.. we don't control that...
isn't it obvious anything passing through our borders will be checked ?
nice clean borders ? that's what you think ?!
Israeli judicial system cannot handle the Hammas..
and so they are left to deal with Egypt.. which does not want Iranian influence crossing it's borders...
Arab politics and courts are a whole ways different than ours..

[3dot...]

the major difference between 'Hammas'(Gaza strip) and the Fatah(west bank)..

is that 'Fatah' (P.L.O/Palestinian authority) wants a state with borders..
and is willing to negotiate as well as fight

religious/Iranian inclined 'Hammas' sees the conflict as a clash of fates.. and vows (openly) to destroy Israel..

why do you not see outrage in the west-bank city streets? why do you not see outrage in the Egyptian streets ?
think on it..

[3dot...]

I think at this point with over 100 UN condemnations and only one country constantly voting against condemning consistently (USA of course), it's obvious that it doesn't matter how many statements against oppression are made, people will decide not to care, or be outraged.
Also, you're forgetting or didn't realize there was satellite video being sent of the event from the ship, until it was jammed by the IDF.
that, more than anything else is what's upsetting, modern war is fought behind a smokescreen. Oh look the IDF took video, yet jammed the "other" sides ability to do so, let's all take their word for it shall we?

yeah right..
our neighbors are angels and we're devils.. clear and cut way to view this conflict..
if you do not see the strategies being used here you're obviously blind..
it's becoming very critical to hold this siege on Hammas..
both from our side.. and the Egyptian side..
they weren't going to let those ships pass unchecked material..
all ships were stopped in a peaceful manner..
except the one 'Marmara' which refused to respond to hails..
it was supposed to be a peaceful operation...(btw not satellites.... helicopters)
the soldiers being lowered to the ship (why? is a good question)...
were obviously attacked brutally...
the commmunication being cut is a standard military thing to do.. especially with specialized units..
if the soldiers wanted to kill.. they would not have lowered themselves there...
they shot live ammunition because they were severely beaten and had to fend for their lives..
(nobody will openly and intentionally lower themselves from a heli to get beat and stabbed...while armed with paint-guns and a pistol)
it's a tragedy.. but not a worst case scenario...it could have ended much worst.. or better..

I am a refusenick (real one)..
I've been to conflicts with lots of people because of my views (including my friends)
my reasons being that I believe it's the only real pressure I can put on my side of the conflict..is to throw down my arms..
and I've been to all conflict zones in this region.. and seen what there is to see before I made my judgement
but in all fairness ...and as much as it's sad...we currently need the IDF strong..becuase of hateful voices in the region..
and cannot rely on the UN to and it's lobby to protect us...
paranoid.. sad.. I know..
wish for better days..

[3dot...]

humanitarian aid to Gaza
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

[3dot...]

with that said...
I don't want to be misunderstood... I'm hating on Israel as well now..
I am ashamed..
I could have been in that protest.. (I go to protests in east-Jerusalem when I can)
(although not holding a weapon)
and I could have been born in the Palestinian side...
human empathy is the most important thing.. and they have killed innocents time and again..
this time.. empathic people..
I believe our decision makers are violent brutes.. they are heartless bastards..
they are the ones trying to take people over by force in international waters..
I DO NOT believe they did not want something like this to happen..

hate is all-consuming.. and it's tearing at our society as well ...
and somebody has to put everything back into prespective..
problem is there is no one like that now.. or on the horizon..

it's the responsibilities of leaders in the region to deliver messages of peace...
otherwise we all lose ..
future's looking pretty grim.. but there is always HOPE

personally .. I hope these people didn't die in vain.. and that the pressure will come down on my country...
our politicians MUST get off their high-horses... and do anything they can to deliver peace..
through diplomacy and positive gestures...

the Israeli strategy is FORCE.. that needs to change..
I hope these bastards(leaders) will pay for their crimes..(on both sides)
because obviously they have no morals..in some twisted way they believe they're serving the good of their country/people
the Israeli people in general are not hateful or violent.. we have a bully government which thinks it has the grounds to act this way..


peace.

[smutek]

Incidently, I don't believe ANY press was present when the flotilla left. If I'm mistaken than I'd love a link to the stories.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle ... 193249.stm

^BBC and others were notified AFTER the fact.

fail.

snort... you're talking about "fail" yet you mention the BBC? The BBC is almost as cowardly as the United States main stream news organizations when it comes to this issue.

Also, for the record, the article you linked to doesn't actually say that they, the BBC, were informed AFTER the fact nor does the BBC seem to express any sort of remorse over not having one of their correspondents along.

It simply says the flotilla had left.

No disrespect meant to you, or even to the BBC. Fine news source and I read it often, but Israel/Palestine is an issue that the BBC is only going to go so far on, they aren't quite as bad as our media here in the states, but overall it's best to look else where. Why not compare and contrast Haaretz with Al Jazeera for example?

How about The Independent? If anything they have some decent commentators, here's an opinion piece by Robert Fisk if you're interested.