Your Master Track

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Lo-Key Fu
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by Lo-Key Fu » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:07 am

Firstly, to address the questions from the OP directly:

With the odd exception, I generally write beat/bass heavy electronic music at a variety of tempo.

I don't use anything on my Master channel strip whatsoever, other than a single metering plugin; specifically Sonalksis Free G which I have found to be the most useful/accurate of those I've tried. The volume dial on my monitors provides boost if required to reference my work to other mastered tracks or sounds, but I don't use a plugin chain for this purpose.

Any problems that arise are addressed in the mix on a track by track basis, and never via the Master bus.

If I have rogue peaks or frequency issues, I isolate the sound(s) responsible and control it (them) in a manner suitable to the source: various forms of compression, clip envelopes to manually control parameters and EQ would commonly feature for this purpose, though the specifics would depend heavily on the source sound and the cause of the problem.

Although I don't separate my arrangement/mixing stage as distinctly as memes_33 has suggested, generally speaking I subscribe to much the same approach, particularly comments like this one:
memes_33 wrote:personally, i think compressors are something that should be applied as-needed, rather than something that you automatically put on tracks as a matter of course
----------

So to take memes_33's comment a step further, if you're having problems with your mixes, rather than adding stuff to the Master bus to fix them, it might be worth applying the same concept to your programming, recording and/or arrangement.

In my humble opinion, this is an often unmentioned, but essential part of achieving sonic balance.

Thinking about not just how or what, but when sounds should play is as much about the balance of your mix as it is about realising a more creative aspect of your work (ie. groove/harmony etc.). In short, wise choices can help address all sorts of common issues and make the mixing process a far simpler task.

To elaborate with a somewhat overblown example:
It's all very well to stack fifty different audio samples to sound on the 'one' and mark the start of a breakdown with a monstrous hit for dramatic effect, but are all those sounds required to hit at identical times? More importantly, are all those sounds even required to get the same results as you might with far less? Of course it's possible that the answer to both questions might be 'yes', but it's easy to lose sight of the idea that production is very much about contrast, and sounds/silences are most relevant to the other sounds/silences that surround them.

In my own work at least, I find that problems such as rogue peaks or over-represented frequencies are often caused by lazy programming/recording/arranging; and as such, once located can easily be fixed without additional effects (especially on the Master bus).

Apologies if you find any of this post a little tangential, just thought I'd throw a different angle into the mix as this has been an interesting thread.

shuutobi
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by shuutobi » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:23 am

FX:
  • Default Saturator w/ Soft Clip ON.
(Yes, I use it when mixing, and I don't push it more than 2dB or so... The main reason is so I don't have a hard clipped output being sent to my monitors)

Utility: (These get turned off when not in use or bouncing)
  • Spectrum
  • VU Meter
  • Oscilloscope
  • Phasescope
From there it goes to sound forge. ;)

rluk
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by rluk » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:56 pm

I really can't find a reason why NOT to have Limiter and EQ (cutting ultra-lows and ultra-highs) on your master channel.
Unless you' re really mad at your ears and speakers :/
Just because the limiter is there, you don't have to push it, it is just there to protect you.

This all applies 100x more in live situation, You greatly increase your chances getting your teeth kicked in with your precious macbook by the house
sound guys, if you send them bass below audible range or insane peaks when smhting goes wrong.

evon
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by evon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:23 pm

rluk wrote:I really can't find a reason why NOT to have Limiter and EQ (cutting ultra-lows and ultra-highs) on your master channel.
Unless you' re really mad at your ears and speakers :/
Just because the limiter is there, you don't have to push it, it is just there to protect you.

This all applies 100x more in live situation, You greatly increase your chances getting your teeth kicked in with your precious macbook by the house
sound guys, if you send them bass below audible range or insane peaks when smhting goes wrong.
There is nothing wrong in doing this..the trick is not to allow any gain reduction.

The thing with limiters and compressors is that they can easily throw the mix out of sync if there is not enough attention given to the time(attack/release)aspect.

And for this reason, which I have only just realized lately, compressors (or limiters)in addition to emphasizing beats, can also be used to fix minute timing issues as well.
fe real!

pepezabala
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by pepezabala » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:30 pm

rluk wrote:I really can't find a reason why NOT to have Limiter and EQ (cutting ultra-lows and ultra-highs) on your master channel.
Unless you' re really mad at your ears and speakers :/
Just because the limiter is there, you don't have to push it, it is just there to protect you.

This all applies 100x more in live situation, You greatly increase your chances getting your teeth kicked in with your precious macbook by the house
sound guys, if you send them bass below audible range or insane peaks when smhting goes wrong.
yes you're right.

how would you set the eq? do you use live's eq8? I am asking as up until now I only have the mentioned limiter for my LIVE playing on the master.

3dot...
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by 3dot... » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:32 pm

evon...not really...
handling the master channel is usually left to the mastering engineer ..
it's best not to touch it until it's rendering time ..
Image

rluk
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by rluk » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:02 pm

Any compressor or eq that does not colour will do.
Make sure that the limiter is not actually doing anything.
And with eq should be safe to remove everything below 20hz (probably even more in the live situation), not to steep curve otherwise it will boost the cutoff point.
I cut highs at 20k too, becuase i ve heard people have blown their tweeters, but cutting bass is definately more important.

And this is all precaution, in the ideal world you never hit the limiter, nor program patches which go that low. But when things can go wrong,
they usually do :)
One scenario I can instantly think of is synth patches made by somebody else, it is not at all that uncommon from them to be too loud and poorly deisgned.

evon
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by evon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:21 pm

abletony84 wrote:Good thread man keep it up!!

Right now I'm using a Utility + Gain + Compressor + EQ8 on my tracks as channel strips to allow the outputs to be "amplified to a line level" before shit passes on to the master.. On the master I got Multiband Dynamics + EQ8 + Utility + Limiter, all macroed together like my channel strips to provide fine grained control depending on the content.

Who told me this, some RBMA fancypants, I'm not gonna name no names :)
Why I decided to follow them - let's just say everybody's trying to copy their style!!
No shit...this is exactly how I work on reggae/Rock Steady. However, I turn everything off the master before rendering then rebuild them in the sound editor when mastering. Of course I keep the tracks hot throughout and pay special attention to gain staging so that the signal is up right through to the master. Also I mix with my Master at 0dB.
fe real!

kanuck
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by kanuck » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:51 pm

rluk wrote:I really can't find a reason why NOT to have Limiter and EQ (cutting ultra-lows and ultra-highs) on your master channel.
Unless you' re really mad at your ears and speakers :/
Just because the limiter is there, you don't have to push it, it is just there to protect you.

This all applies 100x more in live situation, You greatly increase your chances getting your teeth kicked in with your precious macbook by the house
sound guys, if you send them bass below audible range or insane peaks when smhting goes wrong.
or just make sure your track is peaking at around -12db. lots of headroom in case some random noise kills you. if you're using the limiter simply as a safety net i guess it's ok.. but make sure to bring the mix down anyways back to at least -3db. But the thing is I don't think it's super useful since a sudden boost in 6db will be loud whether you have a limiter there or not.

lunabass
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by lunabass » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:28 am

rluk wrote:Make sure that the limiter is not actually doing anything..
so put a limiter on but make sure it's not doing anything? of course it's doing something, otherwise whats the point?
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kanuck
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by kanuck » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:03 am

lunabass wrote:
rluk wrote:Make sure that the limiter is not actually doing anything..
so put a limiter on but make sure it's not doing anything? of course it's doing something, otherwise whats the point?
a limiter only does something once it's threshold is reached. until the gain reaches the threshold the limiter in fact does nothing.

lunabass
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by lunabass » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:36 am

kanuck wrote:
lunabass wrote:
rluk wrote:Make sure that the limiter is not actually doing anything..
so put a limiter on but make sure it's not doing anything? of course it's doing something, otherwise whats the point?
a limiter only does something once it's threshold is reached. until the gain reaches the threshold the limiter in fact does nothing.
i realise that, i was being sarcastic. :D

"Make sure that the limiter is not actually doing anything" ... so whats the point
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Hervé
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by Hervé » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:51 am

For a track release : nothing on the master beside Sonalksis FreeG
http://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htm
Most of the time when i send a track out, the mastering engineer rules are : Nothing on the master / 24bits/44.1khz / -3 dbs headroom
For a live PA it's another story (:

nathannn
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by nathannn » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:27 am

eq8 & spectrum
these two can always be found in the master channel.
why do i use them. to eq and to see what frequencies are lacking or over powering.
who told me to use them? no one
compression is almost always on the master track along with a limiter. who told me to use these?, magazines, forums, youtube video's.
thats about it for the master track, all reverb is added on a track by track basis usually through a send.
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lunabass
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Re: Your Master Track

Post by lunabass » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:34 am

Hervé wrote:Most of the time when i send a track out, the mastering engineer rules are : Nothing on the master / 24bits/44.1khz / -3 dbs headroom
that's pretty much what i get told.

i understand people putting a limiter on the master with mastering type settings to get an idea of what it might sound like but my preference is to leave the master alone
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