I've done live shows under 2 mindsets. I've done a few which were completely preplanned, yet everyone involved was playing something. For the most part they went ok, and if I did a live set at a bigger venue that's the way I'd go again. It's nice to have 90% going on in real time,and people playing "parts".
The other school I've done is completely off the cuff shows. Showing up with little to nothing preplanned, and just going at it. It has it's moments, but sometimes I'm just not in the mood for it. Especially in my area, more experimental stuff doesn't go over too well.
Stage Image
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dirtystudios
- Posts: 1196
- Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:28 am
i don't even know where to begin with all of this.
the lack of vision that some of you have is really depressing. of course, the fewer people willing to push the envelope, the more fun the rest of us will have doing it. just don't clutter up my forum with your old fogey posts.
k
not really. i don't know about the rest of you, but paying ten bucks to support an artist i like while getting to hear different versions of their work a whole lot lounder than i would at home is worth every penny.if you don't think of yourself as a performer and you go on stage and charge people to see you play, don't you think that is a rediculous notion.
how is a dj playing records any more of a musician than a guy playing back his (or hers, lets be fair) sequences. why should i need to "partner up" with a dj? am i not allowed to play my own music?doesn't make sense for people to go see a programmer. here's an idea, maybe programmers should start partnering up with performing djs, and the dj could perform the programmers music.
i can't believe what i'm hearing from you people. we're supposed to be the ones pushing the envelope, delving into new areas of music and performance, and all i hear is "well, if it doesn't look like one of the same old instruments that we've been using for the past five hundred years, then phoey, it's not an instrument and can't 'actually' be played." nuts to you. my computer running live is just as much an instrument as anything you can think of, and we are all slowly yet surely learning to play it. nobody has ever played this instrument before, no masters to learn from, no books we can go buy, no scales to practice. we're developing not just a new instrument, but a new way of looking at performance, a new definition for it. i thinks it's amazing, and there is no one posting in these forums who has yet to take live to it's full potential, i can assure you of that. the people who say that live isn't an instrument, and that laptoppers couldn't actually perform with it need to shut the hell up untill they've taken live as far as it can go, then they can report back.Maybe the solution is to actually learn how to play! Take lessons, get a hardware synth or controller keyboard. Play REAL solos, what a concept. I can't wait for the revolution of actual live music to come back to put all wannabe's back in their houses where they belong so they can practice. I play keys and trumpet and mix at the same time. I play with a turntablist and drummer. I love Ableton live and can't wait until I get my new laptop so I can use it on stage, but you will see me sweating my ass off doing many things at once not staring at a stupid screen.
the lack of vision that some of you have is really depressing. of course, the fewer people willing to push the envelope, the more fun the rest of us will have doing it. just don't clutter up my forum with your old fogey posts.
k
I have yet to perform live and have every intention of doing so - and when I do it's going to be non stop head bobbing and hitting those keys and faders with passion 
speaking of which - tj - any open nights still going on around NYC? I was invited to do a set a month ago at Swim on the LES, but I didn't have a set ready... still working that out. But I would love to bring the TIbook out to play sometime - any interesting nights floating about?
speaking of which - tj - any open nights still going on around NYC? I was invited to do a set a month ago at Swim on the LES, but I didn't have a set ready... still working that out. But I would love to bring the TIbook out to play sometime - any interesting nights floating about?
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stubby
dirty you obviously didn't read my post. take 10 deep breathes and then read it again. first of all I didn't say anything about instruments we've been using for hundreds of years, i'm not even talking about laptops vs. live musicians, I do think laptop musicians can be live musicians. I'm one of them, I do give a show, and have no problems getting on stage with a laptop, what I'm talking about is the selfconfessed laptop bedroom geek getting on stage to do nothing but pretend that there are not 300 people standing in front of him watching him do his rendition of wordprocessing.
if you don't know the diff between djs who perform and those who don't then you won't see where i'm coming from no matter what.
if I want to listen to music I have a stereo for that, if I pay to see you I want to see you perform, and I don't think clicking on a mouse and drinking a latte while you talk to some fellow musicians about max/msp on the side is performing. I hate that crap, just like I hate djs' who do nothing but stand their and watch the record go round while periodically pointing to their friends in the fuckin crowd.
if you don't know the diff between djs who perform and those who don't then you won't see where i'm coming from no matter what.
if I want to listen to music I have a stereo for that, if I pay to see you I want to see you perform, and I don't think clicking on a mouse and drinking a latte while you talk to some fellow musicians about max/msp on the side is performing. I hate that crap, just like I hate djs' who do nothing but stand their and watch the record go round while periodically pointing to their friends in the fuckin crowd.
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Guest
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ipimps 'n' ibitches
why is it that everyone's so concerened about what their show "looks" like, or "how to i look when...i press that button, or twist that knob".
i just don't get this forum, everyone pissing each other off, bullshittin about "you can't do this at a show, you have to do that, don't drink beer, don't fuck your neighbour..."
thing is that since the rise of modern computer-based-music and the thrill of knowing you too can loop three to ten tracks together and call yourself a "producer", everyone's trying to be the coolest chum around.
i dunno, at first i found this forum pretty neet and handy, but now, starting with that flaming platform-debate where y'all showed your real intension in doing music (I'm so cool, I've got a tibook that doesn't work and you don't) i somehow can't catch the idea of y'all trying to be the biggest dick in town.
the information has gone overboard
sorry for playing the thread-killer, but you should "hear", read yourselves....
chip chums
i just don't get this forum, everyone pissing each other off, bullshittin about "you can't do this at a show, you have to do that, don't drink beer, don't fuck your neighbour..."
thing is that since the rise of modern computer-based-music and the thrill of knowing you too can loop three to ten tracks together and call yourself a "producer", everyone's trying to be the coolest chum around.
i dunno, at first i found this forum pretty neet and handy, but now, starting with that flaming platform-debate where y'all showed your real intension in doing music (I'm so cool, I've got a tibook that doesn't work and you don't) i somehow can't catch the idea of y'all trying to be the biggest dick in town.
the information has gone overboard
sorry for playing the thread-killer, but you should "hear", read yourselves....
chip chums
I didn't think this thread would get so much attention, but the fact that it has indicates that people have deep feelings on the subject. Now that I have gotten some feedback from my original post, which was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'd like to refine my ideas.
Music performance is ultimately about music, not looking cool, getting laid, or being a star. By 'stage image,' I have come to understand that this is one's self-perception, one's subjective experience. I find that when I perform on a laptop machine, I have difficulty connecting with the audience, since my eyes are glued to the screen. For some performers, this is acceptable, since they require deep concentration to create the music.
I, however, enjoy connecting with the audience. Not in a self-aggrandizing way, but to check out what they are reacting to and what they are enjoying. This helps me enjoy myself. I like to move my body, walk around a bit, and listen from different angles. Sure, I could probably do this with a laptop machine on a stand, but this brings in a separate issue. Some people -- programmers, sysadmins, whatever -- don't want to work on a computer when they are making music, because they have already logged 8-10 hours during they day already.
I would love to go see a kickass laptop musician. I would close my eyes and just listen to what was happening. Then again, I enjoy a good stage production, too. Lights, someone up there making physical motions that are obviously connected to what is heard ... I like that stuff.
This post is getting rather windy, so I'm outta here.
/S
Music performance is ultimately about music, not looking cool, getting laid, or being a star. By 'stage image,' I have come to understand that this is one's self-perception, one's subjective experience. I find that when I perform on a laptop machine, I have difficulty connecting with the audience, since my eyes are glued to the screen. For some performers, this is acceptable, since they require deep concentration to create the music.
I, however, enjoy connecting with the audience. Not in a self-aggrandizing way, but to check out what they are reacting to and what they are enjoying. This helps me enjoy myself. I like to move my body, walk around a bit, and listen from different angles. Sure, I could probably do this with a laptop machine on a stand, but this brings in a separate issue. Some people -- programmers, sysadmins, whatever -- don't want to work on a computer when they are making music, because they have already logged 8-10 hours during they day already.
I would love to go see a kickass laptop musician. I would close my eyes and just listen to what was happening. Then again, I enjoy a good stage production, too. Lights, someone up there making physical motions that are obviously connected to what is heard ... I like that stuff.
This post is getting rather windy, so I'm outta here.
/S
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Guest
Okay, I'll jump in for just a bit.
I have a friend who does ambient performances with a trombone, a JamMan and effects. (Haven't turned him onto Live yet, but I'm working on it.) I went to see him perform at a coffee house in our neighborhood a while back.
The irony of going to "watch" an ambient "performance," if you consider Eno's original definition of the concept, was pretty interesting. As it turns out, I watched a little bit, sipped my coffee, chatted with friends a bit and read the paper a bit, but all the while I still tuned into the performance. One interesting point was when a police car went by, siren blaring. It got incorporated into the performance, not only by being picked up by the microphone and looper, but also by influencing the performer.
It occurred to me that this was an alternative to the old paradigm of crowd-faces-band-on-stage. It was not only about the music, but also the mood, atmosphere and environment. It was not, however, about the visual antics of the artist, except for the technically curious "how did he do that" types.
Now having said that, I don't think that Live should be pigeon-holed into any one type of performance. It could work well on stage, in the DJ booth, in the corner of the coffee house, wherever. But I do agree with an earlier poster who said that, if it is not your intent to be a visual performer, then don't set up in the old band-on-stage arrangement.
As another earlier post said, we need to be open minded about what changes Live can bring about in terms of musical performance. But I think we need to be equally open minded about new venue concepts, and about new forms for the artist/audience relationship. Whether the artist incorporates visuals or not, whether the artist even wants to be seen or not, we need to think beyond the "rock concert" mind set.
-- T. G. --
I have a friend who does ambient performances with a trombone, a JamMan and effects. (Haven't turned him onto Live yet, but I'm working on it.) I went to see him perform at a coffee house in our neighborhood a while back.
The irony of going to "watch" an ambient "performance," if you consider Eno's original definition of the concept, was pretty interesting. As it turns out, I watched a little bit, sipped my coffee, chatted with friends a bit and read the paper a bit, but all the while I still tuned into the performance. One interesting point was when a police car went by, siren blaring. It got incorporated into the performance, not only by being picked up by the microphone and looper, but also by influencing the performer.
It occurred to me that this was an alternative to the old paradigm of crowd-faces-band-on-stage. It was not only about the music, but also the mood, atmosphere and environment. It was not, however, about the visual antics of the artist, except for the technically curious "how did he do that" types.
Now having said that, I don't think that Live should be pigeon-holed into any one type of performance. It could work well on stage, in the DJ booth, in the corner of the coffee house, wherever. But I do agree with an earlier poster who said that, if it is not your intent to be a visual performer, then don't set up in the old band-on-stage arrangement.
As another earlier post said, we need to be open minded about what changes Live can bring about in terms of musical performance. But I think we need to be equally open minded about new venue concepts, and about new forms for the artist/audience relationship. Whether the artist incorporates visuals or not, whether the artist even wants to be seen or not, we need to think beyond the "rock concert" mind set.
-- T. G. --
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Tommy Genes
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Tue May 07, 2002 6:48 pm
- Location: Yo! Philly!
- Contact:
hey man. yeah Swim seems like a pretty good place to do a set. it's got a nice little booth thing raised up off the floor. good atmosphere in there too. usually pretty empty but it would be good to have all your peeps come and hang. i think i'm going to do a set a Stinger Club in Williamsburg soon. what kind of stuff are you doing? maybe we could hook up and try and play some shows together. i'm ALWAYS down on the LES by Ludlow. maybe we could combine resources and get something going. later.mikeweeks wrote:I have yet to perform live and have every intention of doing so - and when I do it's going to be non stop head bobbing and hitting those keys and faders with passion
speaking of which - tj - any open nights still going on around NYC? I was invited to do a set a month ago at Swim on the LES, but I didn't have a set ready... still working that out. But I would love to bring the TIbook out to play sometime - any interesting nights floating about?
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stubby
yeah that is a great link, but its more than a little bias. I think the person who wrote all that stuff was a little confused about what the issue is. there seems to be a misunderstanding between the topic of music/value and performance, and the concept of performance has nothing to do with a cultural framework as they put it. This has nothing to do with the value of the music, I just don't want to go see some guy whom he himself doesn't think he can perform, perform, and lots of laptop musos say "I'm not a performer"... well the stage is for performers more or less.
there are alot of conventional artist that I like who should not be performing on stage like about 95% of the rappers I like because that walking back and forth crap is about as tired as my grandmother, and thoughs rock groups that stand in the middle of the stage like they are on an invisible surfboard just swinging their head back and forth, for like two hours,, what the fck is that. these are examples of terrible performances (imo) and I don't think laptop musicians should get some special treatment just because we all think we're smart cause we use computers.
If your performance sucks then you should not be on (STAGE) in front of an audience making a presentation of NOTHING, as if you are saying "look my music is so cool , experimental, improvisationaly evolving, tweaked out, and just so damn nifty that you people should be greatful that you have the chance to stand there and watch me watch my laptop, and if you don't think thats performing then you just don't get it"
there are alot of conventional artist that I like who should not be performing on stage like about 95% of the rappers I like because that walking back and forth crap is about as tired as my grandmother, and thoughs rock groups that stand in the middle of the stage like they are on an invisible surfboard just swinging their head back and forth, for like two hours,, what the fck is that. these are examples of terrible performances (imo) and I don't think laptop musicians should get some special treatment just because we all think we're smart cause we use computers.
If your performance sucks then you should not be on (STAGE) in front of an audience making a presentation of NOTHING, as if you are saying "look my music is so cool , experimental, improvisationaly evolving, tweaked out, and just so damn nifty that you people should be greatful that you have the chance to stand there and watch me watch my laptop, and if you don't think thats performing then you just don't get it"
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SongCarver
- Posts: 432
- Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:29 pm
hey all.
I recently got some new glasses, and went to much effort to get some ones that looked good on me, they were a cool rectangular shape.
However, after a couple of days using them, i find that their shape is obtrustive to my vision, ie i can see the edge all the time in my point of view.
So i came to the conclusion, it is not what you look like, but what you see like that is important.
When i am working on Live in a show i find myself staring at the screen almost continously, and i personally find that it takes my attention of my playing/listening.
Scott I agree with your comments.
I'll answer my question i posted above.
I am a trombone player by training also. You want to know whats different about western instruments? You can mostly close you eyes and play.
Or look at your fellow band members and play. Or -GASP- read a score/ chart and play.
Look at you audience and play.
and listen.
And you can physically feel what you are doing, what impact you are having on the instrument. The instrument tells you about itself in aural and physical ways.
If you are hitting off the middle of a snare drum it will feel and sound different.
If you have the slide/ valves on a brass instrument in the wrong place then you can feel it in the mouthpiece before you play, as the wrong resonance/ backpressure.
All string instruments allow you to feel the vibration on your fingers.
Anybody got some ideas for ways that LIVE could give more back?
-SongCarver
I recently got some new glasses, and went to much effort to get some ones that looked good on me, they were a cool rectangular shape.
However, after a couple of days using them, i find that their shape is obtrustive to my vision, ie i can see the edge all the time in my point of view.
So i came to the conclusion, it is not what you look like, but what you see like that is important.
When i am working on Live in a show i find myself staring at the screen almost continously, and i personally find that it takes my attention of my playing/listening.
Scott I agree with your comments.
I'll answer my question i posted above.
I am a trombone player by training also. You want to know whats different about western instruments? You can mostly close you eyes and play.
Or look at your fellow band members and play. Or -GASP- read a score/ chart and play.
Look at you audience and play.
and listen.
And you can physically feel what you are doing, what impact you are having on the instrument. The instrument tells you about itself in aural and physical ways.
If you are hitting off the middle of a snare drum it will feel and sound different.
If you have the slide/ valves on a brass instrument in the wrong place then you can feel it in the mouthpiece before you play, as the wrong resonance/ backpressure.
All string instruments allow you to feel the vibration on your fingers.
Anybody got some ideas for ways that LIVE could give more back?
-SongCarver