PDC poll

[sdfak1234]

so you are saying this is something an amateur wouldn't notice?
i in no way consider myself a pro but from playing in bands that required a mechanical rhythm i feel i do know timing issues when i hear them.

i just tried your automation test and nothing happened, i tried it with a few plugins that i know to produce delay and plug ins that i have know idea if they produce delay.

i really wish you would just upload a simple live set with the examples you have given.

ugh. yeah, I'm saying an amateur wouldn't notice, that's exactly what I'm saying [sarcasm]. just a lame response, totally unhelpful.

look, I haven't got time to explain this any further, but you actually don't get it - figure that out for yourself, not saying you're an amateur but you don't understand this problem. If you weren't aware of the problem, you may never notice it, like myself, once I understood it, it became clear.

audio examples are not good because it's not a/b, and timing issues are relative, BUT it is possible to show examples... maybe if I have time at the weekend I'll post some.

really blown away by some of the attitudes on this forum. PDC automation is a KNOWN Ableton problem, it's in the manual. and you guys are polling it. as if it doesn't exit.

i see you dont have time to explain which is ok so, maybe some one else will.

i am calling my self an amateur , i see myself as a musician not as a producer. so, is this problem something that would cause an amateur to spend hours trying to get a mix to sound right but still fail if they did not know pdc was causing the problem?
basically,is the mix going to sound bad no matter what you do if there is a pdc issue?

coming from a back ground as a guitarist i know that if a new guitarist starts off with a shit guitar they will think they cant play well and might just give up.

last comment tonight, I gotta go to sleep/work tomorrow... but basically to answer your question, you could spend hrs getting your mix perfect, then do something that affects the PDC, work on your project some more, then realise your fine tweaking over time is corrupt and have no way to get it back again without reverting to an older copy of your work. For serious projects that take a long time, this is bad, but I'd argue it could be bad for any detailed work involving automation. Nevermind the audio PDC issues wish I don't want to get into.

Actually one more point, humans are susceptible to change blindness, and PDC timing errors can be like that, you don't realize they're happening until it's too late.

[nathannn]

so pdc is like aids.

[sdfak1234]

so pdc is like aids.

well it's apparently an incurable disease and I also feel like I've been raped so, pretty much. j/k but seriously. pissed.

[nathannn]

ok, thanks for taking the time to explain.

[merges]

Here is a very silly but straightforward example of the plugin-delay-automation issue. As others have indicated, it's truly insidious in that the "errors" accumulate and depending on how many tweaks you make/how much automation you have, can render your project fit only for the trash heap. Again, this will not happen to *everyone* but to many, especially those working with precision.

My analog is to Illustrator. Not everyone needs to tweak down to the millimeter, but it would be ludicrous for Adobe to say that alignment just kind of starts drifting when you use filters and brush strokes, and you'll just have to deal with it. Like graphics software, Live is built around digital precision.

In the following example, I was using the Mac standard audio on my newish MacBook Pro with Intel godknowswhat fast processors and blabity bla. 48Khz, 128 sample buffer. I used FabFilter plugins (regular offenders—but it *should not matter* whose plugins they are; Live should adjust) in this example.

This is a silly example. I have a reverse kick/bass sound with a high cut filter on top of it. I want the high cut to be at a low frequency for the duration of the sound, and to pop up to a high frequency after the sound stops. The result should be silence. I drew the automation to be precisely at the right time. The resulting resampled audio shows exactly what we'd expect: silence.

Then I threw in two more plugins and rendered the audio. The filter rise happens at the same precise time, but the rendered audio shows sound. What gives? The audio signal has drifted forward in time. The filter rise now happens BEFORE the reverse kick/bass sound "finishes" playing. What?! How far did it drift? I have no clue about how far, until I render the audio. (Or listen, and hear things out of whack.)

Edit: The plugins I added are EQs; they aren't verbs and delays adding residual echoes to the sound.



Again, this is a silly example and a simple one to demonstrate the problem. It can get a lot more hairy in a complex project. And in my mind, this just isn't professional grade handling of audio. Music and sound is about time, it's about a certain reliable precision. Just as Photoshop isn't paint, it's pixels.

Edit: if you're having trouble imagining a realistic situation whEre this might occur... say you've automated a filter cutoff on a synth. Then you decide to change the sound by throwing on a saturator and eq before the filter. Suddenly your automation is out of sync with the notes of the synth. Ouch.

(Edited for clarity.)

[Rationalizer]

I would like to use my outboard gear for parallel compression, but I find it rather difficult because the PDC in Live doesn't work properly. I get a lot of phasing issues. Also, when using some plugins (Geist & Maschine for example), I have difficulties with the PDC if the track is armed.

[Sibanger]

so pdc is like aids.

well it's apparently an incurable disease and I also feel like I've been raped so, pretty much. j/k but seriously. pissed.

Yep, if you take enough drugs, you can keep plodding along, even though you know it's there.

[nathannn]

i went back to a track that i have been working on for 6 years! i have had problems with the mix, re wrote it, re arranged it.
i bounced every track to audio and then i seen it for myself. the bass track was slightly off, and drums were slightly out of time. with the synth i really cant tell if its in time or not since there are no real visible transients.

i chose this track because it has given me so much trouble over the years.

for the bass i only used abletons filter and compressor and for the drums just eq and compressor.

so there it. pdc is broken.



so, i dont think i will be making music in live anymore. i take that back, im too addicted.

i guess after adding automation i could just freeze the track and look for any bs thats going on.

simple work around right?

[su]

I'm finding this helpful because it helps clarify the specific situations where pdc is likely to be problematic. It seems like many who are affected have similar workflows - they stack on many effects on tracks, do many microedits of automation of these effects and perhaps of track params, sometimes swap different effects in and out of a track. Under these conditions it sounds like pdc is a regular problem as automation changes and becomes unpredictable.

My guess is that one of the reasons why the topic fosters so much confusion is that in many discussions is presented as a general problem. I understand that theoretically, it is a general problem that's always lurking. However, my sense from this thread is that pdc is more likely to cause headaches in a pretty narrow set of conditions.

I'm sure someone will come along to contradict this.

[ze2be]

I voted:
I have noticed some issues and they impact me significantly. I cannot work around them and most of my projects suffer because of it.

But id rather vote:
I have noticed some issues and they impact me significantly. Some of my projects suffer because of it, and its a huge/complex task working with those.

[ze2be]

I feel sorry for the people who do such detailed editing that they are affected by this, but it's not something I've ever noticed or had an issue with in my workflow.

Up to 2011 I would agree, and like you I have been using Live for many years. However during the last year my projects have become increasingly more complex. Simply out of having fun with racks and routings, getting better with the program and using all its awesome futures. And with the introduction of the APC I started adding more and more layers of automation. Among some of these projects, (and btw these are my source of income), the first saves were tight. But a few months out, and loads of modulation layers and effect routings later, they sound muddy as mudd can be. Soloing tracks and sends quickly confim its all over the place at various degree. Some are tighter with pdc, some are tighter without pdc, etc. Forgive me for not being more precise, but we are in a prosess of figuring it all out now.

In my case, maybe 3 or 4 projects out of 20 I would say suffer from this. And in such degree they can not (imo) be released. They need a lot of work and problem searching to be fixed. Learning about this makes me more cautious when starting new projects from now on. But I did not know about this when I started those projects. And now its a huge task backtracing and rescuing those projects.

Why do I do complex music? Because its a progressive style, and the very nature of it is about doing complex stuff. Its what our fans expect, and its also my passion and love in music.



Someone asked for a video. Heres one I made, turning pdc on and off. (Drums and metronome only, to make it clear)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjiN6U2NubQ
Send nr 5 which is highlighted, has a rack with 4 pararel delays, each with a reversed gate set to different levels. The reson for this is to give longer delays for higher signals, and shorter for lower signals. Eric Persing (from Spectrasonics with all their rythmic loop libraries, Stylus RMX, Omnisphare etc), do this all over the place. Its by far the most used sample library in film, tv and other media. All im saying is that im not completely alone in doing "complex" stuf like this.

[sdfak1234]

I can deal with the audio PDC, but the automation problem is simply a showstopper for me, it effectively means we can't do professional work that is stable without bouncing which is a destructive process.... I just want to know has the automation issue been addressed at all, I just want to get a confirmation so that I can cut my losses, sell off my Ableton licenses + gear before Live 9 is released.. try and get some money back.

[Tarekith]

I almost never have a need to use automation, that's really the only reason it's not something that affects me.

[Akshara]

There should be an option for, "I have noticed some issues and they impact me significantly, so I use another DAW for studio production."

[Tone Deft]

Someone asked for a video. Heres one I made, turning pdc on and off. (Drums and metronome only, to make it clear)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjiN6U2NubQ

I now get a sense of your style and process.
I can't help but think 'Tarekith can fix that!'
render and align. it'll take time but money is always a function of time.
good luck.