Ableton Forum

mholloway wrote:I believe I'm of the same mindset as Tarekith, who posted in a related thread:

"I feel sorry for the people who do such detailed editing that they are affected by this, but it's not something I've ever noticed or had an issue with in my workflow.".

and I have to argue directly against this point, I don't think this statement is an accurate argument in this case, because even if you did only basic editing, and your tracks were indistinguishable by the human ear in blind tests, on an almost philosophical level, if there were a slight shift in sync, even if it's only a few samples, it's still wrong, it's not what you wrote, in-precise and should be fixed.... no digital artist working with graphics would allow even a pixel to shift, and in the digital domain, a single bit error can render information useless/invalid.

mholloway wrote:get your sarcasm radar checked.

you're seriously trying to pretend that was sarcasm. ok. whatever. lame sarcasm given the nature of the debate.

mholloway wrote:get your sarcasm radar checked.

also why do you need to get my sarcasm radar checked? even if it was sarcasm my response is still 100% valid.. actually yeah, you know what? your credibility is fractured , there is no point talking with you because you're not even trying to answer your own questions.

puzzlefactory wrote:Out of interest. To everyone who is dissatisfied with Lives PDC. What did you all do before PDC existed?

My apologies, I took this to be a genuine question, rather than a setup to make a point.

If it doesn't impact your workflow, then that is genuinely great and to be appreciated. In my opinion and experience, the degree one can work with it is proportional to the timing accuracy required by the type of music. The vast majority of my projects don't need millisecond precision with automation and tempo based effects. There are some projects that do, however; and in those cases the best solution is to use an application better suited for the job, such as Logic, DP, Sonar, Cubase, Studio One, Pro Tools, what have you.

funny how this topic brings out the worst in people, hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahaha

man on the street interview:

"Ma'am, your favorite song, tell me what it is about it that moves you so much?"

" I don't know...it think it is because it is so.....so........precise"

Back to a genuine response to the OP's question...

mholloway wrote:I've heard it's specifically something to do with automation of plug-in parameters, yes? If so, which ones?

It affects all automation in the project, including track and plugin automation, all parameters. The following is an excellent description...

understanding PDC problems and solutions

That's only half of the picture though. The other half is with timing based effects, such as tempo synced delays, filters, gates, etc. When those are inserted in a series after any plugin which introduces latency, the timing based parameters get out of sync with Live's clock by the latency offset, making the return audio from the effect itself out of time.

mholloway wrote:What is a typical scenario in which this problem arises (and thereby could explain why so many people are angry about it...)? I just feel like I ought to know...

This is a somewhat typical scenario for a trance project. Insert a synth which uses oversampling, followed by a reverb which uses oversampling, then insert the following series of effects: Tempo Synced Delay > Tempo Synced Modulation Filter > Tempo Synced Gate > Transient Designer > EQ > Sidechain Compressor.

In this scenario, the tempo synced delay will be processing the audio out of sync with Live's timing clock by the amount of latency introduced by the synth and reverb, and feeding the out of sync return into the tempo synced modulation filter, which has all of its modulations running out of sync with the timing clock, and then feeding the return into the tempo synced gate, with its steps also out of sync with the timing clock.

Next add automation to the Transient Designer, and you'll notice that the nodes on the visual grid are not aligned with the sound. So offset each of the nodes to compensate.

Now decide that the reverb isn't working, and replace the reverb with a different reverb which has either no latency or a different amount of latency, or delete it altogether, and notice that the automation on the Transient Designer is out of sync again, and needs to be moved one node at a time; plus the tempo based effects are processing the audio at a slightly different offset to the timing clock, and the track sounds different. It's not that bad, so we can live with it, so let's go ahead and move the automation nodes.

Finally, route the sidechain signal from a plain kick track to the compressor at the end of the chain. Notice how the audio from the sidechain is actually in sync with Live's timing clock rather than with the tempo based effects... okay, scrap that. Print the audio without the compressor and then run the audio through the sidechain. Cool. Add some track volume and pan automation.

Now start this process again with a new track, for a new sound, using a different synth and effects, with a different latency offset. Wait, the volume and pan automation on the track we just did are out of sync. And the tempo based effects on this new part are slightly out of sync with the previous one.

Anyway, that's a relatively straightforward scenario, which I hoped clarified the issue a bit, without any histrionics or sarcasm. I hope so, anyway.

simmerdown wrote:funny how this topic brings out the worst in people, hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahaha

man on the street interview:

"Ma'am, your favorite song, tell me what it is about it that moves you so much?"

" I don't know...it think it is because it is so.....so........precise"

INTERVIEWER: "So what DAW do you use?"

MAN ON STREET: "Ableton Live! It's the best!"

INTERVIEWER: "I said which DAW, not which cute computer music toy"

MWAHHHH HA HA!!!!!!

</trolling>

Akshara wrote:

puzzlefactory wrote:Out of interest. To everyone who is dissatisfied with Lives PDC. What did you all do before PDC existed?

My apologies, I took this to be a genuine question, rather than a setup to make a point.

If it doesn't impact your workflow, then that is genuinely great and to be appreciated. In my opinion and experience, the degree one can work with it is proportional to the timing accuracy required by the type of music. The vast majority of my projects don't need millisecond precision with automation and tempo based effects. There are some projects that do, however; and in those cases the best solution is to use an application better suited for the job, such as Logic, DP, Sonar, Cubase, Studio One, Pro Tools, what have you.

I think all projects should have timing accuracy regardless whether they are big or small.. There is a degree to which delay is noticable, but timing should be tight regardless. ..and from what I understand this is a philosophy Ableton accepts, they know delay shifts even on the smallest projects should not happen.

I'd just like to echo the comment about workarounds not being workarounds; "bouncing" isn't a workaround. It's a different thing. At best, as someone else here described it, it's a different workflow.

In general, I am happy to work within the constructs of software I use. In fact, Live shapes workflow well, as we all tend to agree on. But Live's multiple timing issues are not about workflow, they're about a substantial lack of essential stability in one of the fundamentals of making music: time.

As I've said before, it's like Photoshop not being pixel accurate from time to time. That wouldn't be acceptable for pixel-based graphics software.

Imagine if Live just went a little out of tune from time to time...

I love Live but I won't be an apologist for the software when it comes to these timing issues, in particular automation going out of sync. I think it's fair to speak up about these issues. I work in software, where listening to our users and trying to gauge where our software can better serve there needs, is aided by feedback directly from them about what they need and value, and why.

(P.S. Forget the personal attacks; they don't help discussion and understanding of software or music production.)

sdfak1234 wrote:I think all projects should have timing accuracy regardless whether they are big or small.. There is a degree to which delay is noticable, but timing should be tight regardless.

Ambient, Jazz, Rock and Country can have imperfect timing as a key element of the sound, character and feel. John Cage, Brian Eno and Karlheinz Stockhausen made an art out of it.

Akshara wrote:

sdfak1234 wrote:I think all projects should have timing accuracy regardless whether they are big or small.. There is a degree to which delay is noticable, but timing should be tight regardless.

Ambient, Jazz, Rock and Country can have imperfect timing as a key element of the sound, character and feel. John Cage, Brian Eno and Karlheinz Stockhausen made an art out of it.

I agree with SDFAK. The tool should have timing accuracy.

Choosing to employ it, or to deviate from it, is up to the artist. Imagine if drums didn't sound when you struck them, but slightly before or after.

It's fine to choose to play with various timing, but the recording software in the digital age is like Photoshop, and should be the equivalent of pixel perfect, fundamentally.

Here is the definition of precise because I can see some are struggling with the term:

precise[ pri-sahys ]
adjective
1. definitely or strictly stated, defined, or fixed: precise directions.
2. being exactly that and neither more nor less: a precise temperature; a precise amount.
3. being just that and no other: the precise dress she had wanted.

Akshara wrote:

sdfak1234 wrote:I think all projects should have timing accuracy regardless whether they are big or small.. There is a degree to which delay is noticable, but timing should be tight regardless.

Ambient, Jazz, Rock and Country can have imperfect timing as a key element of the sound, character and feel. John Cage, Brian Eno and Karlheinz Stockhausen made an art out of it.

Sry you've completely missed the point here... If I was making somthing that didnt require precision that would be different. I dont want Ableton to change my work unless I ask it to.

If I play a jazz mp3 on my ipod, I wouldnt expect its precision to change.

all this is lovely, and after multiple threads i fully get it

BUT...in a practical sense,if this is an issue for you, you need to use another daw when it arises, because 9 has not addressed the problem, anyone can describe it til their fingers bleed, its there, and don't hold your breath for it to be fixed

simmerdown wrote:all this is lovely, and after multiple threads i fully get it

BUT...in a practical sense,if this is an issue for you, you need to use another daw when it arises, because 9 has not addressed the problem, anyone can describe it til their fingers bleed, its there, and don't hold your breath for it to be fixed

Not so sure about this as I was, I think this issue is approaching the critical mass necessary to force it to be addressed.. This is a hot topic on every other forum including the beta one, If we keep on talking about it and make sure all the newbies are educated I believe it will get fixed more quickly. I wont upgrade without it, but I refuse to believe they arent addressing this, it doesnt make sense given they've just wrote massive upgrades to their automation system.