What is consciousness? Near death Experiences and the soul.

[LoopStationZebra]

I suspect there are vast planes of existence/dimensions that are out there, and we are only beginning to even formulate the ideas - let alone know what they are. Consciousness could very well be connected to these other planes/levels. This is not magic. It's possible undiscovered science. I love the notion that 500 years ago no one had any fucking clue about radio waves. Even if you'd tried to explain it to the smartest people on the planet, they would have been like WTF? 1000 years ago people couldn't even IMAGINE undiscovered science. The current generation always thinks they've got it all fucking figured out. Without exception. Foolishness.

In 500 years, we're going to have discovered the most amazing and fantastical shit that...right now...seems utterly preposterous. Existence of God? Gods? Super Higher Power(s)? Consciousness that continues? We say pfft now, but....


I'm just going to leave these there before I go: Clarke's Three Laws:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[Forge.]

^+1!

But not even 500 years.... less than 150 even....

The simple fact of the matter is we're really right at the beginning. 150 years is nothing, and most of the really big stuff came in the last 150 years.

[crumhorn]

It's very hard to explain those cases when the patient recounts details of what went on at the moment their brain was completely inactive and they were technically dead, or why a woman who had been blind her whole life could see while she was dead.

I confess that my first reaction is to be extremely sceptical. How could she describe it as seeing when she has never seen before? what specific details did she recount? could she have overheard details in a conversation? seen similar surgery on TV? or was she unconsciously coached? Did she really have the experience while near death or is it a false memory constructed by her brain as a way of filling a void or making sense of the experience?

Obviously I don't know about the particular case (I should probably read the book) but these are the kind of questions I would want to ask.

[crumhorn]

But you also raise an interesting point about there being 'nothing to be conscious of'... we're getting into Schroedinger territory here...

I didn't put it very clearly - I don't mean it in the sense of "if I close my eyes does the world cease to exist" - but in the sense of that consciousness is intrinsically linked to the mental content created by out brains. those mental contents are the only type of thing that consciousness can be conscious of.

Basically I don't buy into the whole mind/body dualism concept. It's all one thing. ... IMO

[Forge.]

It's very hard to explain those cases when the patient recounts details of what went on at the moment their brain was completely inactive and they were technically dead, or why a woman who had been blind her whole life could see while she was dead.

I confess that my first reaction is to be extremely sceptical. How could she describe it as seeing when she has never seen before? what specific details did she recount? could she have overheard details in a conversation? seen similar surgery on TV? or was she unconsciously coached? Did she really have the experience while near death or is it a false memory constructed by her brain as a way of filling a void or making sense of the experience?

Obviously I don't know about the particular case (I should probably read the book) but these are the kind of questions I would want to ask.

Both these cases were from this BBC doco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD9jigzzuas

The blind woman had never seen anything in her life, and the other woman described the scene in the theatre and even repeated a conversation that took place while she was completely dead on the table being operated on, and she also had these "clicker" things in her ears blocking the passages. The doctors were talking about how her auditory system would have been completely inactive.

If nothing else, at the very least it certainly raises the possibility that there is more to the brain than just electrical signals and chemicals.

[Forge.]

But you also raise an interesting point about there being 'nothing to be conscious of'... we're getting into Schroedinger territory here...

I didn't put it very clearly - I don't mean it in the sense of "if I close my eyes does the world cease to exist" - but in the sense of that consciousness is intrinsically linked to the mental content created by out brains. those mental contents are the only type of thing that consciousness can be conscious of.

Basically I don't buy into the whole mind/body dualism concept. It's all one thing. ... IMO

I probably shouldn't have made the throwaway schrodinger comment either really- I wasn't meaning that either. That was a different tangent I almost went off on... I was more referring to the fact that we only see or perceive a very small part of the spectrum, so our ideas about what is and isn't real are very much restricted by that.

but I definitely am open to the possibility that there could be some part that is "super" conscious, such as whatever it is that is perceiving during these NDEs

[Forge.]

Prof. Stuart Hameroff who comes in at about 38 mins in that doco has some interesting ideas on how it could be a brain function:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD9jigzz ... ge#t=2354s

[Forge.]

Prof. Stuart Hameroff who comes in at about 38 mins in that doco has some interesting ideas on how it could be a brain function:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD9jigzz ... ge#t=2354s

IN fact, I just watched his bit again and he articulates pretty much exactly what I've been getting at.

He suggests that it's handled in microscopic parts of the brain nerve cells called "micro-tubules" which he says is where the brain connects to the quantum world, and when someone is unconscious (i.e. under anaesthetic) this quantum information 'leaks out' and due to quantum entanglement still remains connected "at least temporarily".

[Forge.]

So the question is, is this information just part of the fabric of space and time, or in other words like the light analogy I used where it pervades the entire universe and we just 'receive' it, (the zero point energy field?) and it connects to us via these micro-tubules, or is it something unique to us as individuals, such as a unique pattern of this quantum information that each individual has- that can maybe be described as a soul if you like.

I'm not sure they have to be mutually exclusive either. Maybe you do have your own unique imprint that rejoins the fabric of space time when you die but still retains some integrity, then can be born again into a new body later.

Or maybe it's all completely neutral (like light) and the only thing that makes us individuals are all the bumps and experiences we have that shapes our brain.

One thing that is interesting about these NDEs though is the repeated accounts of meeting dead relatives, in some cases without prior knowledge that they even existed.

[Forge.]

Stuart Hameroff Ted talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8

[Forge.]

More from Stuart Hameroff

http://www.quantumconsciousness.org

http://www.news.com.au/news/quantum-sci ... 6507686757

And here's a really technical explanation of the finer details of his theories on quantum biology and consciousness at a Google talk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3s

[Machinesworking]

But I'm not sure they are completely wrong about "the power of thought". I'm not making any leaps either as to what that is or how much of an effect it can have, but this is exactly one of the areas that I think should be studied more. The Ice crystal stuff was interesting, but it needs to be made clear that it was an art project and not a scientific study. Even still, it is definitely interesting that the "positive" thought ones tend to be harmonic - if you think about that in parallel with cymatics it certainly raises some interesting prospects that there could be some kind of 'harmonious' thought projection...

To the bold part here, but you are, you most certainly are. Realize that that "art project" has never been scientifically tested, the artist just 'said' that the crystals were formed because of his thoughts, and the filmmakers chose to believe him because it fit their world view, and you chose to use it as a debate point because it fits your world view. You basically like the conclusion, so how it came about isn't at all important to you. You're not alone, most people who love paranormal stuff more than hard science do the same thing.

[Vivo]

Evidence of the afterlife

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/ ... 9#34953879

[Forge.]

Evidence of the afterlife

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/ ... 9#34953879

interesting..

have to look him up on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... s5Z9qQRG_Q

One interesting point - he seems to be saying that it's not culturally specific, while the other guy Peter Fenwick was saying it is - i.e. apparently in Japan they get on a boat instead of going through the tunnel....

[crumhorn]

I think you have to be very careful about accepting near death experience as evidence for an afterlife. Near death is not the same thing as death; no one as ever reported back from being dead AFAIK.