Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
hipdeejay
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 4:42 pm

Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by hipdeejay » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:59 am

Tarekith wrote:I'm not trying to argue, I'm not trying to troll, and I'm not being an Apple faboi, I'm seriously trying to help. I'm portable all the time, I work with just my laptop and the onboard soundcard out and about while travelling or just to get away from the studio very often. I use my MBP to DJ, to process my guitar, to play live, and to run a professional mastering studio day in and day out. The exact same MBP you guys have.

I just don't understand how this is such an issue for you, if you can still lower the latency enough to be workable. In what kind of situation do you NEED less than 7ms latency like you can get by dialing down the soundcard all the way? That's the part I don't understand. I can't think of a single instance where you NEED to go lower than that.

I understand why people are curious that the latency is higher in the newer laptops, I GET that. It's a little weird, I completely agree. But at the end of the day, if you can still reliably turn down the latency in Live to well below what the vast majority of professionals consider workable levels, so what? It's like saying you can no longer make music because the noise floor of the new soundcard is now -89dBFS, when the the old one was -90dBFS. I mean, yeah it's a little odd, but it's not something that's really going to get anywhere close to being an issue.

What are you guys doing that this is such a showstopper? How does something like this become an issue when making music on an airplane?
You're missing the point entirely. At 32 samples Live is unusable. Nothing but glitchy distorted jumbled slow playback. Have you even TRIED to use 32 sample buffer? Clearly you haven't. Doesn't even matter what the latency is at that point if you can't even hear what you're working on properly.

So if you try to use Live with an acceptable (higher than 32 samples) buffer size now the latency is too high with this machine. So sure you can turn the buffer lower and get a lower latency like you said, but now everything sounds like shit and is unusable. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. Why don't you set your buffer to 32 samples and then try to play ANYTHING.

The point isn't that last year's model had lower latency than this one, blah blah blah. The fact is last year's model actually worked right without these issues. I'm tired of repeating myself just try it and get back to us. Everyone else is experiencing this problem except you apparently.

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by pencilrocket » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:14 am

I'm not trying to argue, I'm not trying to....
Lower buffer size = more CPU consumption. I assume the point is that 'if we have to lower the buffer size to get the same result as the previous machine, are we purely getting the benefits of the faster spec(CPU) assembled in the new machine? Are poor chipset/drive canceling out, to a certain extent, the improvements of the new machine?'.

Some says they need 6core Xeon x2 to produce their music and the others not. That's not what this thread is dealing with I think.

Tarekith
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by Tarekith » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:10 pm

Deleted.

Moosebear
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by Moosebear » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:24 pm

Can someone tell me: does all this mean that the new Macbook Pro is no longer a good choice for music-making? I had returned the late 2013 Macbook I bought because of the Freezing issue. Apple has now issued a firmware update which resolves it (available free thru itunes store) so I was thinking about getting one again.

But I'm converting from Windows, with some sacrifice of programs I own in Windows...

I want a solution "That just works" and for which I have solid phone support. (I'd buy Apple Care from a certified 3rd party vendor) Now I'm hesitating. Any advice appreciated.

Moosebear
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by Moosebear » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:07 pm

Another thread about this issue at Gearslutz. (link below) I'm now glad I returned my new MBP for the freezing issue, I'd have been very upset to install Live and everything else then to find out the latency is problematic. I write music on computers, my demos are not for release but just rough drafts, I have no reason to get an external sound card.

I've been using PC laptops for years to record multiple tracks, with the native sound card. And I've had to dick around with ASIO drivers and latency settings. Getting solid "Out of the Box" audio is one of the things that drew me to Mac. "It just works". If Apple has dropped audio as a priority... might as well stick with PC and get more bang...? I would consider last years Retina as a refurb, but the price is almost the same, like $1800 for the model with a 512G drive...



http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... ost9568985

Moosebear
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by Moosebear » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:31 pm

I just spoke with a senior tech in Pro Audio at Apple about this issue. He's heard nothing about it. I said it was causing me to hesitate in the purchase of a MBP.

He did say that Logic pro 10 is still not officially compatible with Mavericks - and that when it is, an update will show up in the store.

He had a 15" Haswell machine in front of him, I asked him to verify the latency. He did and said his is running between 15 or 19ms. I asked, is that normal to you, he said: "It's not an issue, in any case, I hit the notes on my keyboard and have no issue with delay, so..." He suggested I go into an Apple store and try one, and see how responsive it feels, he insisted that's all that matters.

I said "what about these folks who have been showing 7.8 ms for their older machines? Are they not right to be concerned about 19ms the new machines? He said: "Well, you can stare at that number, but if it doesn't make any difference to the playing, why does it matter?"

I'm still hesitating. I don't think I would feel comfortable recording multi-track vocals in a store to test the latency. I want to get a new MBP but I'm hesitating and I don't know if I should be. Any advice appreciated.
Last edited by Moosebear on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pencilrocket
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by pencilrocket » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:00 pm

lol that senior tech in Pro Audio at Apple is noob :lol: Who trust the technology company says "new machine's audio driver/chipset are twice as worse than previous model. Who cares!" "Because it just works!"

oh wait I heard similar phrase somewhere.

hipdeejay
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 4:42 pm

Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by hipdeejay » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:11 pm

Moosebear wrote:I just spoke with a senior tech in Pro Audio at Apple about this issue. He's heard nothing about it. I said it was causing me to hesitate in the purchase of a MBP.

He did say that Logic pro 10 is still not officially compatible with Mavericks - and that when it is, an update will show up in the store.

He had a 15" Haswell machine in front of him, I asked him to verify the latency. He did and said his is running between 15 or 19ms. I asked, is that normal to you, he said: "It's not an issue, in any case, I hit the notes on my keyboard and have no issue with delay, so..." He suggested I go into an Apple store and try one, and see how responsive it feels, he insisted that's all that matters.

I said "what about these folks who have been showing 7.8 ms for their older machines? Are they not right to be concerned about 19ms the new machines? He said: "Well, you can stare at that number, but if it doesn't make any difference to the playing, why does it matter?"

I'm still hesitating. I don't think I would feel comfortable recording multi-track vocals in a store to test the latency. I want to get a new MBP but I'm hesitating and I don't know if I should be. Any advice appreciated.
Yeah that guy has no idea what he's talking about. I'd hold off for now. Still waiting on my replacement machine but I'm debating if I should return it or just keep it and hope they issue a fix for it soon. But it's looking like this issue isn't very high priority for them so who knows...

Moosebear
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by Moosebear » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:15 pm

[/quote]Yeah that guy has no idea what he's talking about. I'd hold off for now.[\quote]

Thanks Hipdeejay, I will hold off. I can't believe that the actual pro audio dept. of Apple wouldn't know about this issue, if it's as wide-spread as we suspect. I wonder if Apple tell their techs to pretend they've never heard of an issue?

pencilrocket
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by pencilrocket » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:17 am

Lawyer never says they knew what customer claims.

mots
Posts: 230
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by mots » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:06 am

Moosebear wrote:
Yeah that guy has no idea what he's talking about. I'd hold off for now.[\quote]

Thanks Hipdeejay, I will hold off. I can't believe that the actual pro audio dept. of Apple wouldn't know about this issue, if it's as wide-spread as we suspect. I wonder if Apple tell their techs to pretend they've never heard of an issue?[/quote]


pretty sad. if anyone has some updated info i would be interested !

mots
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by mots » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:41 pm

did you think of this : http://www.apple.com/osx/advanced-technologies/

In OS X Mavericks, Timer Coalescing groups low-level operations together, creating tiny periods of idle time that allow your CPU to enter a low-power state more often. With its activity reduced up to 72 percent, the CPU uses less energy, giving your battery a break, too. This happens so fast you won’t notice a thing. And your Mac still gets just as much done just as quickly

hipdeejay
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Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 4:42 pm

Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by hipdeejay » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:46 pm

I doubt that has anything to do with it. It that were the case, everyone who updated their machines to Mavericks would be experiencing these issues. It has something to do with these new machines, what I don't know.

Moosebear
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by Moosebear » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:57 pm

Well I'm thinking about getting a refurb of last February's Retina MacBook pro, just to avoid this issue.

Is that a bad idea? I will save a couple hundred off a new one, even tho it will be slightly larger, slower (SSD optimization) and with shorter battery life... (no Haswell)

But might be worth it, if this latency issue persists, no? Any thoughts appreciated.

fishmonkey
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Re: Weird 2013 Macbook Retina Latency Issue

Post by fishmonkey » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:35 am

Moosebear wrote: But might be worth it, if this latency issue persists, no? Any thoughts appreciated.
as far as i can see, the only time this will be a real issue is if you are using a MIDI controller to play stuff in real-time and you are using the built-in audio as your monitoring output. does that apply to you?

if you are using an external audio interface, it's a non-issue.

if you are not doing real-time tracking/overdubbing with the onboard audio, it's not an issue.

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