Ableton Forum

Not yet, but see this thread for other ideas.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=201157&p=1581265#p1581265

i just tried the ext instrument thing. again, only one chain sounds. i'm trying to keep this as simple as possible.

Buleriachk wrote:
Have you actually tried this?

Not with chords, but I did do something similar to control DMXIS (lighting plug in). DMXIS presets can be triggered by MIDI notes on channel 16, and I was creating scripted light shows, I wanted to be able to see the name of the preset I was triggering in the MIDI clip. So I created a drum rack, named each cell with the preset it would trigger, and each pad had an External Instrument on it, set to send MIDI to the DMXIS track. Worked like a charm for my purposes.

the external instrument isn't needed anyway. i know the thing works with a midi rack chain selector but it's so fiddly.

Buleriachk wrote:For example, in A minor, the third of the dominant 7th is raised (from g to g#) to ensure the isomorphism between the progression E7 -> Am and the same progression G7 -> C in its related major (where F# is lowered to F in the G chord).

This ensures the Dominant to Tonic relation is consistent in diatonic music....

Those who know will trust me.,...

The part in bold is not how diatonic harmony works. There is no F# diatonic to the key of C major, therefore there is no F# present to lower to F in the first place.

The dominant seventh chord in C major already has the major-minor seventh chord structure (major third + minor seventh) without any alterations. That's why it is the primary dominant of the key.

And none of what you wrote either supports or is even related to your previous statement that the harming minor scale is related to the difference between a dominant triad and a dominant seventh chord.

And secondary dominants are their own subject. The most commonly used example of how a chord's perceived function can change when it is either a triad or a seventh chord is the tonic chord in a major key function as the secondary dominant of the subdominant. Since the tonic triad is diatonically major in a major key composers often lower the seventh scale degree of the key and add it to the chord to create a major-minor seventh chord on the tonic so that the dominant to tonic function of the V7/IV—IV progression is more apparent. Otherwise a simple motion from the tonic triad to the subdominant (I-IV) may not be as strong of a harmonic motion depending on the context.

Those who don't know don't have to trust me. They can verify it in any basic music theory text.

Who said anything about triads?

============ CHORDS =======================

Chords are built on scales from their root.

G major 7th chord is G,B,D,F#

G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
(1,1,1/2,1,1,1/2) general definition of the major scale from the chromatic.

The F# is lowered to F, and is accidental in the scale of G major (the interval relations that define the scale on which the G major chord is constructed...
G Dominant 7th G,B,D,F
G Dominant 7th
G7 -> C Progression
===========================================================
E Major 7th Chord: E, G#, B, D#
E Major Scale 1,1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2
E F# G# A B C# D# E
E Dominant 7th: E G# B D
(D# lowered to D, accidental in the scale of E Major; the E7 is the dominant 7th of Am...)
E7 -> Am progression

================ Scales ==========================
A Natural Minor scale
1,1/2,1,1/2,1,1
A BC D EF G A
--------------------
A Harmonic Minor scale
1, 1/2, 1, 1/2, 1 1/2
A, BC D EF G#A
(e.g.) G changed to G# to implement Dominant Chord in progression E->A
(triads; but my discussion was about the dominant 7ths)
---------------------
A Melodic Minor scale
A, BC D E F# G#A
1, 1/2,1, 1,1, 1/2

(F changed to F# for a smoother melodic line between E and A, hence the name "Melodic Minor"

Q.E.D. and Done!
Sheesh! ...

Buleriachk wrote:Who said anything about triads?

You did. Here:

Buleriachk wrote:There is a difference in a chord progression from dominant to tonic, vs. dominant 7th to tonic.

The above quote implies that you are talking about the difference between a dominant triad moving to the tonic and a dominant seventh chord moving to tonic. Otherwise what could you possibly mean about there being a difference? To be clear, in a minor key the natural chord built on the fifth scale degree is commonly called the "minor dominant" so that its name is not confused with the term "dominant" as a function.

Buleriachk wrote:Chords are built on scales from their root.

Edit: I read this wrong. No, chords are built on scale degrees which form their roots.

Buleriachk wrote:G major 7th chord is G,B,D,F#

Yes this chord exists diatonically in the keys of G major, D major, E minor, and B minor.

Buleriachk wrote:G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
(1,1,1/2,1,1,1/2) general definition of the major scale from the chromatic.

Yes, this is the G major scale. So?

Buleriachk wrote:The F# is lowered to F, and is accidental in the scale of G major (the interval relations that define the scale on which the G major chord is constructed...
G Dominant 7th G,B,D,F
G Dominant 7th
G7 -> C Progression

This is all true… if you're talking about the secondary dominant V7/IV in the key of G major.

However… earlier you implied that the F# would have to be lowered in order to form a G major-minor seventh chord in order to function as the dominant of C in the key of C major. Here:

Buleriachk wrote:For example, in A minor, the third of the dominant 7th is raised (from g to g#) to ensure the isomorphism between the progression E7 -> Am and the same progression G7 -> C in its related major (where F# is lowered to F in the G chord).

But this is of course false, because there is no F# in the key of C major in the first place (as I already posted and was ignored). If you're talking about making a dominant seventh on G* then this is a different story, but you have not made it clear that you are actually talking about secondary dominants in this instance.

*A chord built on G can function as a secondary dominant in G major (V7/IV), F major (V7/V), Bb major (V7/ii), Eb major (V7/vi), Ab major (V7/iii), G minor (V7/iv), F minor (V7/v), E minor (V7/VI), D minor (V7/VII), and A minor (V7/III).

Buleriachk wrote:E Major 7th Chord: E, G#, B, D#
E Major Scale 1,1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2
E F# G# A B C# D# E
E Dominant 7th: E G# B D
(D# lowered to D, accidental in the scale of E Major; the E7 is the dominant 7th of Am...)
E7 -> Am progression

Again, this is all true… if you're talking about the secondary dominant V7/IV in the key of E major.

Buleriachk wrote:Sheesh! ...
(Is there ANYTHING we can agree on?)

This is all about your contention that the harmonic minor scale has something to do with the difference between a dominant triad and a dominant seventh chord, which I cannot agree with because it is not true.

It occurs to me now that English may not be your first language and this has all been a language barrier issue. Is this the case?

English is my first language. The issue is that you are argumentative, and nit chicken-picking over an initial statement that was not meant to require a fricking doctoral thesis ....

In short, you are boring, and a boor....

Your response was a stupid overreaction to a basic discussion of why it would be nice to have dominant 7th chords (and chords in general) to use in chord progressions in Live.....

I'm sorry you don't have the ability to discuss something or be disagreed with without resorting to personal insults.

It's also regrettable that you took my posts so personally.

It's very unfortunate since correcting the problems in your statements could be helpful for some beginner who might read this.

You tried to hijack the basic purpose of this thread by starting a pissing contest about basic music theory over a VERY casual statement of mine to present yourself of a Great Guru of All Things in Music Theory. Nuts! My judgment of your intent and character stands...

"Devotion to consistency above all else is the hob-goblin of small minds...." (paraphrase)
I would hate to be a student of yours.....

stringtapper wrote:I'm sorry you don't have the ability to discuss something or be disagreed with without resorting to personal insults.

It's also regrettable that you took my posts so personally.

It's very unfortunate since correcting the problems in your statements could be helpful for some beginner who might read this.

Nevertheless, you may have the last word. You are now on my "ignore" list....

It's incredible how thin-skinned some people can be.

Buleriachk wrote:

Matt_Quinn wrote: Just an idea, but if you put an External Instrument device in each cell, you can send the MIDI out to a separate MIDI track with a single instrument on it that you could then swap out as much as you want.

Have you actually tried this?

Ive done it for drum synths in a drum rack which works fine. I'll stick the drum synth in one cell, then use external instrument to route midi to and optionally audio back (from alternative outputs of the VST) into the sounds own cell.

A couple of days ago I did actually try the chord rack (I posted as a first thought above) with a midi converted por ariba type audio clip with the chords extracted into 3 parts - lower 2 strings, middle 2 and upper 2 (so that you could basically chord-play lower pair + middle pair, middle pair + upper pair) to try to get the strum variations and surprisingly it actually sounds OKish considering I just stuck it through tweaked a FM guitar patch (Live suite library) on operator and so expected it to sound aweful but it didn't surprisingly.

It means 2 finger playing, but has the advantage of needing fewer different chord variations and giving the player more easy 'strum' variations to work with. Also may work better with a midi delay sometimes on one or both of the upper 'string' notes to yield passing plucks type behaviour.