Ableton Forum

Machinesworking wrote:

That's a HUGE improvement and the only major issue I have with 4's midi editing.

I have plenty, if you have used a DAW like Logic or Digital Performer for MIDI editing, then use LIve, you really see a contrast in focus. Live just isn't that focused on the editing of MIDI. the window is small, has no key commands to open it up, and the simple moving of MIDI notes in the editor is touchy to say the least. Select multiple notes and try dragging them, you can easily erase them, or deselect them. There are other things. I still use it sometimes, I like writing in Live, but it's definitely less advanced MIDI wise than Logic.

I have Logic and it is definitely a more robust editor, but Live's editor is simple, easy, and I don't have the issues you mentioned when selecting notes etc. I always feel I know where I am in the set with Live's editor, Logic I tend to have to figure out what bar I'm editing. There are a few things I'd like improved in Live of course, key commands sure, a line tool definitely, groove templates definitely. But the fold feature is great for me, and I enjoy midi editing more in Live than Logic. Simple preferences really, it has nothing to do with experience. Of course I'm not writing symphonies but bass lines, chord progressions, and drum tracks. For that it does the job nicely.

"Regardless, the plug ins still are better in Express."

I'll have to totally disagree here. Express's plug ins are crap, imo. Most of the included synths are very basic subtractive synths, and the sound is really ugly I think, not nearly warm enough for my tastes. Even the included fm synth sucks...Operator kills it. I didn't go through the effects so much, but what I heard didn't sound any better than Live's plugs. But that's just me.

Captain Screwbarb wrote:"Regardless, the plug ins still are better in Express."

I'll have to totally disagree here. Express's plug ins are crap, imo. Most of the included synths are very basic subtractive synths, and the sound is really ugly I think, not nearly warm enough for my tastes. Even the included fm synth sucks...Operator kills it. I didn't go through the effects so much, but what I heard didn't sound any better than Live's plugs. But that's just me.

I disagree, I love Logic's synths. I wish I could use them in Live. They aren't the greatest, but they work extremely well in Logic and make the package 'complete'.

braj wrote:

Captain Screwbarb wrote:"Regardless, the plug ins still are better in Express."

I'll have to totally disagree here. Express's plug ins are crap, imo. Most of the included synths are very basic subtractive synths, and the sound is really ugly I think, not nearly warm enough for my tastes. Even the included fm synth sucks...Operator kills it. I didn't go through the effects so much, but what I heard didn't sound any better than Live's plugs. But that's just me.

Simpler is not in any way comparable to to the EXS, and the FX are much better as well. You pay $129 plus $399 for Operator compared to $299 for the synths in Logic. The embedded plug ins are actually less CPU intensive than third party equivalents, this cannot be said about Live. In fact if you couple Logic Express with RedMatica's Autosampler, the possibilities for conventional sampling of nearly anything are far superior to Live's Simpler.
What Live offers is the Session View, the rest isn't as advanced, and that can mean easier to use for some people. Which is a good thing of course.

It all depends on whether you are a competent DAW user.

I like your choice of words ... "competent" Feels like you are in the scouts.

Are your compositional skills competent? Or are you deficient?

Machinesworking wrote: For instance in some respects Logic Express with FM7 is a better choice than Live 5 with Operator, but you won't be hearing many people here say that beyond me.

I think if you have a fast computer, and work well with a few soft synths, then Live is a better choice. I do for the most part, maybe 4-7 synths and samplers tops, and I'll probably be writing in Live more once I get 5, the freeze function seems like the best I've heard of.

Yes, I have a fairly fast computer (iBook G4 1.33 with 786 mb's of RAM) and I will be working with soft synths. So I'm hoping that I will be fine for a beginner.

Machinesworking wrote:
but don't rule out a traditional DAW if you find yourself feeling like the editing isn't what you want. I have doubts as to when Live will get to SX3, DP, or Logic level in editing. Certain simple work flow things that would gear it towards that have simply never been introduced. This would be the third version I've seen personally that still doesn't have a simple key command to close the browser window for instance.

No, I certainly won't rule out a traditional DAW. This setup is just for starters, and I hate to duplicate software purchases by getting a DAW and Live (I will be using Live for live performance as well) when Live can adequately do what I need it to at this stage in my production "career".

Thanks for all of your informative help! No worries about being huffy, I didn't take it that way!

Machinesworking wrote:Simpler is not in any way comparable to to the EXS, and the FX are much better as well. You pay $129 plus $399 for Operator compared to $299 for the synths in Logic.

I'm confused here. Simpler comes with Live. It's Operator that runs $129. Did you mean to put Operator there and not Simpler?

Captain Screwbarb wrote: One thing that really pissed me off about Logic was that when I assigned an audio track to a rewire input the record button disapeared...meaning you can't record external rewire instruments as audio, like you can in Live.

You're just not familiar with Logic that's all. Simply solo the track, bounce it and there you go......
The biggest let down of Logic's Rewire Implementation is that it takes two instances of the Instrument object to get a stereo Rewire channel, the rest of it actually allows for more control than other methods.
I can't stand Rewire though. What with Jack, Wormhole, and Soundflower on the mac side, I see NO reason for it. Unless you're using Reason. Live rewired sucks, no MIDI Instruments....yay.......

Anyway I'm hoping Live 6 kicks all DAW ass when it comes to MIDI and workflow.

anarchicluv wrote:

Machinesworking wrote:Simpler is not in any way comparable to to the EXS, and the FX are much better as well. You pay $129 plus $399 for Operator compared to $299 for the synths in Logic.

I'm confused here. Simpler comes with Live. It's Operator that runs $129. Did you mean to put Operator there and not Simpler?

Nope, I guess I should have put those two sentences in different paragraphs for clarity?

Basically the EXS outclasses Simpler, and the included synths in Logic Express are roughly $229 cheaper than Operator plus Live 5. Though if you look at Express like a gateway drug to Pro...........

Ableton Live 5 is capable of being a spectacular DAW. but remember, its not like other DAWs and it never will be. Cubase, Logic, DP, ProTools all have huge similarities between them. Live fits into a niche that the other products gloss over, and its all about immediacy.

Session View = Workflow = Realtime = LIVE!

Its called LIVE for a reason, remember that.
it truley is radical. thats why few people are impartial to it. most either love it or hate it, you'd be hard pressed to find people who just find it "okay" like they would cubase or protools.

That said, try out the Logic Express Trial
http://www.apple.com/logicexpress/trial/
Its 30 days, all you can eat. you can save, export, blah blah blah for 30 days. if you choose to buy it, you can still open the projects you made with the trial.
for $299 Logic Express 7 is a great DAW. (so is Cubase SL3)

i have Logic Express 7.1 and i do find it useful for some "jobs", but never my own work. The synths and samplers aren't spectacular, but for $299 they are really just bonuses to what is already a good deal.

but here's the most important thing you have to consider:
workflow and resource effeciency.

Live has the workflow i love, but it could be kinder on the CPU. Live 5 gives you freeze which makes life easier on the Mac. and of course you can look forward to the future of Macintels running Live. Personally speaking, i've always written my music in a realtime workflow. be it on an MPC or computer. So for me, Live is the cats meow. Your mileage may vary.

Logic can go a good 30-40% farther in terms of # of reverbs, tracks, plug-ins, etc. but it doesnt have the session view workflow, and the awesome clip envelopes.

So, grab that Logic Express 7 trial the day the wider Live 5 public beta begins. This gives you a good 30 days of using both of the apps at the same time for comparison purposes (of course the Live beta will expire and you may have to switch to a demo version for a while). See what you like and go for it.

btw,
Operator is $149 USD, not $129

it is, €129 Euro.

AdamJay wrote:Ableton Live 5 is capable of being a spectacular DAW. but remember, its not like other DAWs and it never will be. Cubase, Logic, DP, ProTools all have huge similarities between them. Live fits into a niche that the other products gloss over, and its all about immediacy.

Session View = Workflow = Realtime = LIVE!

Its called LIVE for a reason, remember that.
it truley is radical. thats why few people are impartial to it. most either love it or hate it, you'd be hard pressed to find people who just find it "okay" like they would cubase or protools.

That said, try out the Logic Express Trial
http://www.apple.com/logicexpress/trial/
Its 30 days, all you can eat. you can save, export, blah blah blah for 30 days. if you choose to buy it, you can still open the projects you made with the trial.
for $299 Logic Express 7 is a great DAW. (so is Cubase SL3)

i have Logic Express 7.1 and i do find it useful for some "jobs", but never my own work. The synths and samplers aren't spectacular, but for $299 they are really just bonuses to what is already a good deal.

but here's the most important thing you have to consider:
workflow and resource effeciency.

Live has the workflow i love, but it could be kinder on the CPU. Live 5 gives you freeze which makes life easier on the Mac. and of course you can look forward to the future of Macintels running Live. Personally speaking, i've always written my music in a realtime workflow. be it on an MPC or computer. So for me, Live is the cats meow. Your mileage may vary.

Logic can go a good 30-40% farther in terms of # of reverbs, tracks, plug-ins, etc. but it doesnt have the session view workflow, and the awesome clip envelopes.

So, grab that Logic Express 7 trial the day the wider Live 5 public beta begins. This gives you a good 30 days of using both of the apps at the same time for comparison purposes (of course the Live beta will expire and you may have to switch to a demo version for a while). See what you like and go for it.

Well, well...I was hoping you'd show up and throw down your nickle's worth AdamJay! Thank you!

You hit on the two things I see as being a huge benefit with Live over other DAW's: workflow and immediacy! I've worked a tad with other DAW's (not much, mind you) and I just can't stand the workflow! Add a bit here...listen to track...add a bit there...listen to track...subtract a bit...listen to track. Yuck! Being able to do all of this live and on-the-fly is sooo much better in my opinion. So much more creative.

I've already decided to go with Live. I was getting Live at some point anyhow as I plan to use it for live performance. What I was questioning is whether I should buy it now, or if I should buy Logic now and save up some more for Live. See, I already perform live using Traktor and I want to get on producing, so I was kind of torn on what to do. But now that I know Live is a very competent DAW in it's own right...problem solved!

buy it now for sure.

Novamusik has Live 4 for $299
http://www.novamusik.com/search.aspx?ty ... yword=live

now, you can either buy it there for $299. or print that page and take it to your local Guitar Center and have them match that price.

just do it BEFORE the Live 5 release (in a few weeks, tops) so you can get Live 5 for FREE.

and spend the $ you save on Operator
the new Operator features in Live 5 make it even more of a must-have.

AdamJay wrote:buy it now for sure.

Novamusik has Live 4 for $299
http://www.novamusik.com/search.aspx?ty ... yword=live

now, you can either buy it there for $299. or print that page and take it to your local Guitar Center and have them match that price.

just do it BEFORE the Live 5 release (in a few weeks, tops) so you can get Live 5 for FREE.

and spend the $ you save on Operator
the new Operator features in Live 5 make it even more of a must-have.

I could kiss you AdamJay!! I had no idea another retailer had this at $299. I'm going to print that off and have GC price-match!! Woot!

anarchicluv wrote:

AdamJay wrote:buy it now for sure.

Novamusik has Live 4 for $299
http://www.novamusik.com/search.aspx?ty ... yword=live

now, you can either buy it there for $299. or print that page and take it to your local Guitar Center and have them match that price.

just do it BEFORE the Live 5 release (in a few weeks, tops) so you can get Live 5 for FREE.

and spend the $ you save on Operator
the new Operator features in Live 5 make it even more of a must-have.

I could kiss you AdamJay!! I had no idea another retailer had this at $299. I'm going to print that off and have GC price-match!! Woot!

I just checked out that link. They sell Ableton for $349. But hey, $50 is $50!