Intel gear is around the corner

[Angstrom]

If you told me I could load up OSX Tiger on my PC and get the same performance now, I would dowload it, log off the net and install it right now. This is my problem.

You can. I've done it.
I tested a build on a P4 2.8Ghz Shuttle (those little cube pc's) with
2x120 SATA HDD and a Radeon 9600.

Was blazingly fast. Not as fast as the dual 2.7 G5 I have used at work obviously.
But way way way faster then XP on the same machine. I mean way faster.
i can't wait for a dual core 3.0ghz intel powerbook.
drool.

did you run Adams L5 speed test on it to give us a CPU figure? That's the most apt test to all us lot. Both the shuttle CPU under XP and the OSX86 figure if you can.

Looks like my "macintel through rosetta will not require an L5 rewrite" prediction may be correct!

BTW not all PC users spasmodically shout yah boo sucks every time a mac is mentioned.

[forge]

If you told me I could load up OSX Tiger on my PC and get the same performance now, I would dowload it, log off the net and install it right now. This is my problem.

You can. I've done it.
......

patience.

i can't wait for a dual core 3.0ghz intel powerbook.
drool.

well exactly, that would be somehtnign to behold!

SO how easy was it to instal? is it the hack and still quicker than XP?

Is it okay wit drivers/programs? you run live on it??

If so i want it!

Imagine having a dual boot OSX and XP! then no programs (like bloody metasytnh) would be off limits!

[Machinesworking]

My question, again, when Intel powerbooks come out, and are just as fast as PC, or faster...... what are you mac haters going to say then?

dude, you've actually done a really good job of proving my point!

I am not from the "PC side" - My whole argument is based on the fact that I think by now there shouldnt be such a thing, and I started on Macs and still have one. I dont want such a thing as a Mac vs PC argument AT ALL! I just would like OSX tiger without having to waste money on poorly inefficient systems. I have no doubt whatsoever that loads of laptop mnufacturers would do a great job of building a michine that OSX would love.

These "consumer reports" you speak of??? any links?? I personally find it very hard to believe. I've read more problems with macs around the audio forums than PCS, more powerful hardware is bound to make for more stability and my point is Dell, HP, Toshiba, IBM, Sony etc etc are putting just as much effort into the build quality, if not more....so why cant they have OSX on them which is clearly a far better OS??

Dead wrong you are my son!
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2005/02/08.8.shtml

Never take the trials and tribulations of forum posts as a dipstick into the facts.

If you told me I could load up OSX Tiger on my PC and get the same performance now, I would dowload it, log off the net and install it right now. This is my problem.

YES! you get it! Finally! YOU want Apple to be simply a software company that makes some boutique hardware, when they are right now, as we speak, a hardware company that makes software too. The R&D point about M$ I made, you didn't quote me on that, simply because admitting the difficulties M$ has with supporting so many different motherboards doesn't fit in with your desire for Apple to make software that runs on Dell. Maybe they don't see the advantage of it? Do you remember the Apple clones? They dropped license support for clones because the other companies were putting cheap parts in in order to undersell Apple, then running to Apple complaining that their cheap video card was acting up, help! etc... Apple was spending money helping competitors undersell them and lower the quality of the platform in general.

They dont have to stop making their own hardware, I'd probably still buy it when it's powerful enough and I have the cash...

We'll see, my guess is people like you will be using some cracked x86OSX from Limewire on your Dell, and honestly, more power to you.
I'm not in total disagreement that it would be cool to be able to build a cheap PC and slap OSX on it, I disagree that Apple is somehow a monster for not allowing that, it's their OS for crying out loud? you ever read your license agreements? YOU don't own Live, you simply license it from Ableton, same with all commercial software.
Now I hope what happens is a few years from now Apple simply stops trying to prevent people from running OSX on generic PCs, and publically states that though they aren't going to prevent people from installing OSX on their PC's, they aren't going to support it in the least. This is my perfect solution, but I won't get pissed if it doesn't happen.

Why you and other people think your arguments against Apple make it OK to consistently make lame remarks about Apple users...... I just don't get it? that's my main complaint here.

[Angstrom]

I don't think refering to microsoft as M$ does your argument any good, the implication being "Microsoft are in it for the money". Which is blatantly true, as are Apple corp.

Especially when you say that you support Apple lock-ins and platform protectionism , which would alienate you from the Linux types who might more legitimately use the M$ tag.

[gomi]

did you run Adams L5 speed test on it to give us a CPU figure? That's the most apt test to all us lot. Both the shuttle CPU under XP and the OSX86 figure if you can.

Looks like my "macintel through rosetta will not require an L5 rewrite" prediction may be correct!

BTW not all PC users spasmodically shout yah boo sucks every time a mac is mentioned.

Hmm no I didn't.
I should have. But I have since then wiped the box.

If I find time to do a reinstall I might just do that.
The problem is I don't think the build I had
properly supports the onboard audio of my
particular motherboard.

[Machinesworking]

I don't think refering to microsoft as M$ does your argument any good, the implication being "Microsoft are in it for the money". Which is blatantly true, as are Apple corp.

Especially when you say that you support Apple lock-ins and platform protectionism , which would alienate you from the Linux types who might more legitimately use the M$ tag.

True, I didn't even think of it in those terms but you are right.
I don't support A¢ (=Apple ) lock ins, I just understand it from a business perspective, that's all.
Only problem with shortening Apple Computer to A¢ is you actually have to use the Alt button, but besides that, it works in many respects does it not?

[djadonis206]

Apples cool - their systems are nicely designed and clever

I'm glad I bought a PC and sold the Mac though - best thing I could have done for myself - I'm running all the programs I've ever wanted the way i wanted, it's so nice

and I feel like I have so many more customization options to crack it open and tweak

now don't get me wrong, if and when I strike that big record deal and come off a multimillion dollar world tour I'm buying a G5 Quad and huge TV display (don't get me worng)


For music, just making beats - I'm all for PC, I was tired of hitting that wall with my mac


peace in the middle east through funky beats!


a

[gaspode]

Dead wrong you are my son!
http://www.macobserver.com/article/2005/02/08.8.shtml

Never take the trials and tribulations of forum posts as a dipstick into the facts.

I would also caution about taking anything posted on the internet, tv, published in books, overheard in a pub or anything else as a dipstick into facts either.

Besides, isn't it true that 33% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

[inis]

Rumor has it that the new mac intel machines won't have firewire support. Could be a deal-breaker....

Probably nonsense, they're most likely going to drop the slower FW400 support and go FW800 all the way. Why have 2 different FW chipsets on a logic board when the faster is backward compatible?

exactly. and this "rumor" was mostly referring to the mac mini (which will start turning in to a living room extertainment hub) and the iBook (which apple has clearly expressed interest in further separating from the powerbook line as far as price in order to appeal to the entry level laptop market). There is no need for firewire for students that want a $600 laptop for taking notes, browsing the internet, and playing doom.

They might as well get rid of 400. its just a plug. USB2.0 has almost comparable speeds. im all in favor of everything going to 800.

[noisetonepause]

And really I'm fucking bored and sick of hearing about macs. To me it would be like someone going on about Hewlett Packard or Dell. They're just a company who make computers AND an OS etc etc so why the fuck do we have to hear about them so often? The Mac/PC wars carry on again and a fucking gain, at least once a month round here even, and it's unbelievably boring. We dont still argue about Beta versus VHS video, do we??

They make a COMBINATION of hardware and software. Which is the point here. I'm not saying the pros of Mac OSX will disappear if/when you can run it on Dell hardware, but I like the Mac hardware, I like the designs, I like the features, I like the weight and battery life of my laptop, and I like what it costs. I have not seen a laptop from any manufacturer that has the same appeal as an iBook, even if it would run Ubuntu perfectly (complete with wireless internet working).

So my point is??? Well, not very democratic is it? - writing an OS and not paying the pitiful amount of attention and cash required to make it available for PC - christ, Sonic charge - Microtonic, a team of ONE developer can do a mac and PC version, Apple could release an "IBM compatible" version (see the irony there?? IBM COMPATIBLE! the very company who's chips have been ONLY JUST been ditched by Apple, yet they havent still released an IBM Compatible, or "PC hardware" version of the software so people can still have the benefits of OSX without being conned into paying more for inferior performance power.

All due respect, you're yelling nonsense now. Compare the amount of platform-specific code in OSX to the amount of platform-specific code in Microtonic.
As for being 'conned', can you name me any day-to-day task for non-musicians (don't know about graphics artists) where Macs perform inadequately?

Also, just to clarify, the phrase 'IBM PC-compatible' refers to a specific model of IBM computer (with the brand name PC) from sometime before I was born(!) which used Intel 8086 chips. No PC-compatibles have ever used IBM-branded CPUs. The reason it became ubiquitous is due to a clever and innovative licensing stunt made by Messrs Gates, Allen, and Ballmer cos IBM believed that the money was in the hardware and not the software, so they let Microsoft license their OS to other manufacturers creating the first cross-platform OS.

I just think the very fact that we are even discussing this with so much interest is out of order. They are probably 2 or 3 years behind in Laptop power, that is a joke. They should have adressed it a long time ago.

They should be regarded as fools for that, but the sleek sexiness of their design department have sucked people in.

They've more or less always been behind in terms of processing power. Back in the earlier 90's it was in the order of 20:1 compared to IBM PC-compatibles...
As I've stated so many times before, it's a moot point for me. I like my Mac, it does what I want, it does it fast enough (not talking strictly about music apps here), it's stable and nicely built and iBooks aren't even expensive. I think I have the cheapest laptop compared to the other people in my hall (26 people, most of whom study techy stuff). It's also the thinnest and lightest. It has firewire target disk mode, longer battery life, reliable suspend/wake up, better audio outs, bus powered firewire, etc. etc. You need to take all of these into account.

There's no law that sez you HAVE to support every fucking motherboard out there, and if you think it's easy for Microsoft, you really have another thing coming. The R&D cost for them is ridiculous.

Microsoft don't write drivers. Manufacturers write drivers for Windows cos otherwise they won't shift units.

[noisetonepause]

There is no need for firewire for students that want a $600 laptop for taking notes, browsing the internet, and playing doom.

but the Apple iLifestyle also includes making "movies" (as they insist on calling films) and digital video cameras are all firewire.

Can't see Apple doing this but I have been wrong in past (sorry if that made anyone's world tumble), so they might. I just really hope they don't, as it'd mean I'd have to get a PowerBook next time I get a Mac (will be a few years though, this iBook's still shiny). Not sure they could actually get away with it either.

[forge]

....
Why you and other people think your arguments against Apple make it OK to consistently make lame remarks about Apple users...... I just don't get it? that's my main complaint here.

there...what what that??What lame remarks have I and other people made against APLLE USERS????

Paws asked me to elaborate on the one off the cuff comment I made about alienation...so I did.

I realise whenever you make these kind of comments in a mac thread you are bound to get someone worked up, but please dont take my comments personally NOT ONCE in any of my comments did I criticise mac USERS. Every comment was a criticism of Apple. Which begs the question, Why get so defensive? what does it have to do with you??

Like I said, I'm really not interested in being either a "mac" or "PC" user, I just use computers, and I personally far prefer OSX and would really like to use it on my PC because I cant afford to buy the power I need in Apple hardware.

Really that simple. But there were no "lame comments about Apple users" in there.

Also, as for the statistic, its from a MAC journal...doesnt that make it a bit biased??

Look, I'm just saying if they're going to make less powerful hardware they shoud give us the option of running it somewhere else.

Admittedly most of the comments are based on Live because this is where I spend all my time, but here I definitely read alot more problems
with macs, same with Native Instruments.

maybe what paws said is right about day to day tasks running no different etc, but I think the Apple mentalitiy is definitely exclusive, the fact they are so closed and only interested in their own hardware just gets in the way of choice and probably makes it even harder to fix problems.

And what is this with EVERY time they put out an OS update developers have to go back and update their software??

machinesworking wrote:

My question, again, when Intel powerbooks come out, and are just as fast as PC, or faster...... what are you mac haters going to say then?

man what a crazy thing to say. I'm no "mac hater", far from it. Why would you feel so defensive, they need to be criticised so they can improve, this is why Ableton is so good, because their users whinge alot and they hear it. Whinging (and not mac hating) is vital to a better product.

[djadonis206]

my mentality changes - but I'm a very ego centric, shame based entity

I thought i had to have a Macintosh and PC's were not cool - but since I said 'just Fuck it' why keep fighting something larger than myself (Macintosh)

went straight off the performance test - compared some things, weighed some other things I came to the conclusion - I have X amount of money and I need X amount of juice = AMD Athlon 64

that was easy and I'm kicking myself for fighting for so long with Apple tech support, the mac stores, my fiance, my friends and the inner demon deep down within my psychological make-up


however, Mac's are pretty sweet just a tad bit to expensive for what you DON'T get - juice, customer service, customization and upgradability

peace - I like me computer, it's coo' I liked my Mac to - it was coo'

Ad

[Machinesworking]

there...what what that??What lame remarks have I and other people made against APLLE USERS????

Dude, you absolutely imply, like every other person bashing on A¢ who side steps straight name calling, that anybody who buys a mac is sucked in by marketing and wankers. You think that's OK, I think it's baiting people on purpose.
You grouse about not having the choice to put the A¢ OS designed to sell hardware on a cheap PC not made by A¢, and to some degree I can sympathize, but don't you think you should at least try to think of the sound business reasons why a company would make such choices?

The link came from a mac site, but Consumer Reports is a nationally renowned consumer advocate magazine, not a mac magazine, independent, and non profit. pretty much the most trusted US consumer advocate magazine out there. You can deny without proof, but to deny with?

To me, it will be simple in the future for me as a composer, I will buy A¢ powerbooks with Intel chips, and AMD desktops with M$ XP on it as an extra synth and FX farm via ADAT. This is the best of both worlds, and what with a decent powerbook, you could go upwards of four + years without upgrading the powerbook, just upgrade the PC desktop....

I will switch to Linux when Live ports to Linux, but until then, this sounds like the best solution.

Forge, I don't hold grudges, it's just conversation really, that's all.

[nosuch]

I'm going to wait until a revsion is provided and Ableton provides the right binary type native to the Intel version for Mac OS X.

sorry i am a technical moron. don't they just have to compile the C++ code when a compiler for the new system is released?