Well, the Nazi comment was originally made as a joke you whiney fools. It wqs made as a joke because in WW2 Hitler was working on these science fiction ideas like rocket missiles and world domination. So here is this thread talking about us doing this crazy sci fi shit like particlre beams to maintain world domination. And aside from being a joke, there happen to be similarities
And if you live in this country and can not see the similarities you have your head in the dirt. Do a little research. Deadly Kung Foo, I think that is bullshit, Haven't you heard history repeats itself. Why is it so offensive to americans to make the statement that their country is run by a bunch of fascist shits?
here is a little comparrason for you smart asses
taken from:http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm
It started when the government, in the midst of an economic crisis, received reports of an imminent terrorist attack. A foreign ideologue had launched feeble attacks on a few famous buildings, but the media largely ignored his relatively small efforts. The intelligence services knew, however, that the odds were he would eventually succeed. (Historians are still arguing whether or not rogue elements in the intelligence service helped the terrorist. Some, like Sefton Delmer - a London Daily Express reporter on the scene - say they certainly did not, while others, like William Shirer, suggest they did.)
But the warnings of investigators were ignored at the highest levels, in part because the government was distracted; the man who claimed to be the nation's leader had not been elected by a majority vote and the majority of citizens claimed he had no right to the powers he coveted.
He was a simpleton, some said, a cartoon character of a man who saw things in black-and-white terms and didn't have the intellect to understand the subtleties of running a nation in a complex and internationalist world.
His coarse use of language - reflecting his political roots in a southernmost state - and his simplistic and often-inflammatory nationalistic rhetoric offended the aristocrats, foreign leaders, and the well-educated elite in the government and media. And, as a young man, he'd joined a secret society with an occult-sounding name and bizarre initiation rituals that involved skulls and human bones.
Nonetheless, he knew the terrorist was going to strike (although he didn't know where or when), and he had already considered his response. When an aide brought him word that the nation's most prestigious building was ablaze, he verified it was the terrorist who had struck and then rushed to the scene and called a press conference.
"You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history," he proclaimed, standing in front of the burned-out building, surrounded by national media. "This fire," he said, his voice trembling with emotion, "is the beginning." He used the occasion - "a sign from God," he called it - to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors, a people, he said, who traced their origins to the Middle East and found motivation for their evil deeds in their religion.
Two weeks later, the first detention center for terrorists was built in Oranianberg to hold the first suspected allies of the infamous terrorist. In a national outburst of patriotism, the leader's flag was everywhere, even printed large in newspapers suitable for window display.
Within four weeks of the terrorist attack, the nation's now-popular leader had pushed through legislation - in the name of combating terrorism and fighting the philosophy he said spawned it - that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus. Police could now intercept mail and wiretap phones; suspected terrorists could be imprisoned without specific charges and without access to their lawyers; police could sneak into people's homes without warrants if the cases involved terrorism.
To get his patriotic "Decree on the Protection of People and State" passed over the objections of concerned legislators and civil libertarians, he agreed to put a 4-year sunset provision on it: if the national emergency provoked by the terrorist attack was over by then, the freedoms and rights would be returned to the people, and the police agencies would be re-restrained. Legislators would later say they hadn't had time to read the bill before voting on it.
Immediately after passage of the anti-terrorism act, his federal police agencies stepped up their program of arresting suspicious persons and holding them without access to lawyers or courts. In the first year only a few hundred were interred, and those who objected were largely ignored by the mainstream press, which was afraid to offend and thus lose access to a leader with such high popularity ratings. Citizens who protested the leader in public - and there were many - quickly found themselves confronting the newly empowered police's batons, gas, and jail cells, or fenced off in protest zones safely out of earshot of the leader's public speeches. (In the meantime, he was taking almost daily lessons in public speaking, learning to control his tonality, gestures, and facial expressions. He became a very competent orator.)
Within the first months after that terrorist attack, at the suggestion of a political advisor, he brought a formerly obscure word into common usage. He wanted to stir a "racial pride" among his countrymen, so, instead of referring to the nation by its name, he began to refer to it as "The Homeland," a phrase publicly promoted in the introduction to a 1934 speech recorded in Leni Riefenstahl's famous propaganda movie "Triumph Of The Will." As hoped, people's hearts swelled with pride, and the beginning of an us-versus-them mentality was sewn. Our land was "the" homeland, citizens thought: all others were simply foreign lands. We are the "true people," he suggested, the only ones worthy of our nation's concern; if bombs fall on others, or human rights are violated in other nations and it makes our lives better, it's of little concern to us.
Playing on this new implicitly racial nationalism, and exploiting a disagreement with the French over his increasing militarism, he argued that any international body that didn't act first and foremost in the best interest of his own nation was neither relevant nor useful. He thus withdrew his country from the League Of Nations in October, 1933, and then negotiated a separate naval armaments agreement with Anthony Eden of The United Kingdom to create a worldwide military ruling elite.
His propaganda minister orchestrated a campaign to ensure the people that he was a deeply religious man and that his motivations were rooted in Christianity. He even proclaimed the need for a revival of the Christian faith across his nation, what he called a "New Christianity." Every man in his rapidly growing army wore a belt buckle that declared "Gott Mit Uns" - God Is With Us - and most of them fervently believed it was true.
Within a year of the terrorist attack, the nation's leader determined that the various local police and federal agencies around the nation were lacking the clear communication and overall coordinated administration necessary to deal with the terrorist threat facing the nation, particularly those citizens who were of Middle Eastern ancestry and thus probably terrorist and communist sympathizers, and various troublesome "intellectuals" and "liberals." He proposed a single new national agency to protect the security of the homeland, consolidating the actions of dozens of previously independent police, border, and investigative agencies under a single leader.
He appointed one of his most trusted associates to be leader of this new agency, the Central Security Office for the homeland, and gave it a role in the government equal to the other major departments.
His assistant who dealt with the press noted that, since the terrorist attack, "Radio and press are at out disposal." Those voices questioning the legitimacy of their nation's leader, or raising questions about his checkered past, had by now faded from the public's recollection as his central security office began advertising a program encouraging people to phone in tips about suspicious neighbors. This program was so successful that the names of some of the people "denounced" were soon being broadcast on radio stations. Those denounced often included opposition politicians and news reporters who dared speak out - a favorite target of his regime and the media he now controlled through intimidation and ownership by corporate allies.
To consolidate his power, he concluded that government alone wasn't enough. He reached out to industry and forged an alliance, bringing former executives of the nation's largest corporations into high government positions. A flood of government money poured into corporate coffers to fight the war against the Middle Eastern ancestry terrorists lurking within the homeland, and to prepare for wars overseas. He encouraged large corporations friendly to him to acquire media outlets and other industrial concerns across the nation, particularly those previously owned by suspicious people of Middle Eastern ancestry. He built powerful alliances with industry; one corporate ally got the lucrative contract worth millions to build the first large-scale detention center for enemies of the state. Soon more would follow. Industry flourished.
He also reached out to the churches, declaring that the nation had clear Christian roots, that any nation that didn't openly support religion was morally bankrupt, and that his administration would openly and proudly provide both moral and financial support to initiatives based on faith to provide social services.
In this, he was reaching back to his own embrace of Christianity, which he noted in an April 12, 1922 speech:
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers ... was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders...
"As a Christian ... I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice..."
When he later survived an assassination attempt, he said, "Now I am completely content. The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal."
Many government functions started with prayer. Every school day started with prayer and every child heard the wonders of Christianity and - especially - the Ten Commandments in school. The leader even ended many of his speeches with a prayer, as he did in a February 20, 1938 speech before Parliament:
"In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgment and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger."
But after an interval of peace following the terrorist attack, voices of dissent again arose within and without the government. Students had started an active program opposing him (later known as the White Rose Society), and leaders of nearby nations were speaking out against his bellicose rhetoric. He needed a diversion, something to direct people away from the corporate cronyism being exposed in his own government, questions of his possibly illegitimate rise to power, his corruption of religious leaders, and the oft-voiced concerns of civil libertarians about the people being held in detention without due process or access to attorneys or family.
With his number two man - a master at manipulating the media - he began a campaign to convince the people of the nation that a small, limited war was necessary. Another nation was harboring many of the suspicious Middle Eastern people, and even though its connection with the terrorist who had set afire the nation's most important building was tenuous at best, it held resources their nation badly needed if they were to have room to live and maintain their prosperity.
He called a press conference and publicly delivered an ultimatum to the leader of the other nation, provoking an international uproar. He claimed the right to strike preemptively in self-defense, and nations across Europe - at first - denounced him for it, pointing out that it was a doctrine only claimed in the past by nations seeking worldwide empire, like Caesar's Rome or Alexander's Greece.
It took a few months, and intense international debate and lobbying with European nations, but, after he personally met with the leader of the United Kingdom, finally a deal was struck. After the military action began, Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain told the nervous British people that giving in to this leader's new first-strike doctrine would bring "peace for our time." Thus Hitler annexed Austria in a lightning move, riding a wave of popular support as leaders so often do in times of war. The Austrian government was unseated and replaced by a new leadership friendly to Germany, and German corporations began to take over Austrian resources.
In a speech responding to critics of the invasion, Hitler said, "Certain foreign newspapers have said that we fell on Austria with brutal methods. I can only say; even in death they cannot stop lying. I have in the course of my political struggle won much love from my people, but when I crossed the former frontier [into Austria] there met me such a stream of love as I have never experienced. Not as tyrants have we come, but as liberators."
To deal with those who dissented from his policies, at the advice of his politically savvy advisors, he and his handmaidens in the press began a campaign to equate him and his policies with patriotism and the nation itself. National unity was essential, they said, to ensure that the terrorists or their sponsors didn't think they'd succeeded in splitting the nation or weakening its will.
Rather than the government being run by multiple parties in a pluralistic, democratic fashion, one single party sought total control. Emulating a technique also used by Stalin, but as ancient as Rome, the Party used the power of its influence on the government to take over all government functions, hand out government favors, and reward Party contributors with government positions and contracts.
In times of war, they said, there could be only "one people, one nation, and one commander-in-chief" ("Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer"), and so his advocates in the media began a nationwide campaign charging that critics of his policies were attacking the nation itself. You were either with us, or you were with the terrorists.
It was a simplistic perspective, but that was what would work, he was told by his Propaganda Minister, Joseph Goebbels: "The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
Those questioning him were labeled "anti-German" or "not good Germans," and it was suggested they were aiding the enemies of the state by failing in the patriotic necessity of supporting the nation's valiant men in uniform. It was one of his most effective ways to stifle dissent and pit wage-earning people (from whom most of the army came) against the "intellectuals and liberals" who were critical of his policies.
Another technique was to "manufacture news," through the use of paid shills posing as reporters, seducing real reporters with promises of access to the leader in exchange for favorable coverage, and thinly veiled threats to those who exposed his lies. As his Propaganda Minister said, "It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."
Nonetheless, once the "small war" annexation of Austria was successfully and quickly completed, and peace returned, voices of opposition were again raised in the Homeland. The almost-daily release of news bulletins about the dangers of terrorist communist cells wasn't enough to rouse the populace and totally suppress dissent. A full-out war was necessary to divert public attention from the growing rumbles within the country about disappearing dissidents; violence against liberals, Jews, and union leaders; and the epidemic of crony capitalism that was producing empires of wealth in the corporate sector but threatening the middle class's way of life.
A year later, to the week, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia.
In the months after that, he claimed that Poland had weapons of mass destruction (poison gas) and was supporting terrorists against Germany. Those who doubted that Poland represented a threat were shouted down or branded as ignorant. Elections were rigged, run by party hacks. Only loyal Party members were given passes for admission to public events with the leader, so there would never be a single newsreel of a heckler, and no doubt in the minds of the people that the leader enjoyed vast support.
And his support did grow, as Propaganda Minister Goebbels' dictum bore fruit:
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
Within a few months Poland, too, was invaded in a "defensive, pre-emptive" action. The nation was now fully at war, and all internal dissent was suppressed in the name of national security; it was the end of Germany's first experiment with democracy.
As we conclude this review of history, there are a few milestones worth remembering.
February 27, 2005, is the 72nd anniversary of Dutch terrorist Marinus van der Lubbe's successful firebombing of the German Parliament (Reichstag) building, the terrorist act that catapulted Hitler to legitimacy and reshaped the German constitution. By the time of his successful and brief action to seize Austria, in which almost no German blood was shed, Hitler was the most beloved and popular leader in the history of his nation. Hailed around the world, he was later Time magazine's "Man Of The Year."
Most Americans remember his office for the security of the homeland, known as the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and its SchutzStaffel, simply by its most famous agency's initials: the SS.
We also remember that the Germans developed a new form of highly violent warfare they named "lightning war" or blitzkrieg, which, while generating devastating civilian losses, also produced a highly desirable "shock and awe" among the nation's leadership according to the authors of the 1996 book "Shock And Awe" published by the National Defense University Press.
Reflecting on that time, The American Heritage Dictionary (Houghton Mifflin Company, 1983) left us this definition of the form of government the German democracy had become through Hitler's close alliance with the largest German corporations and his policy of using religion and war as tools to keep power: "fas-cism (fâsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
Today, as we face financial and political crises, it's useful to remember that the ravages of the Great Depression hit Germany and the United States alike. Through the 1930s, however, Hitler and Roosevelt chose very different courses to bring their nations back to power and prosperity.
Germany's response was to use government to empower corporations and reward the society's richest individuals, privatize much of the commons, stifle dissent, strip people of constitutional rights, bust up unions, and create an illusion of prosperity through government debt and continual and ever-expanding war spending.
America passed minimum wage laws to raise the middle class, enforced anti-trust laws to diminish the power of corporations, increased taxes on corporations and the wealthiest individuals, created Social Security, and became the employer of last resort through programs to build national infrastructure, promote the arts, and replant forests.
To the extent that our Constitution is still intact, the choice is again ours.
MSNBC: Particle Beam Weapons Almost Ready for Battle
what a bizarre take - are you serious? The US already runs the Americas, that would be an utterly pointless thing to do - Iraq on the other hand is one of the most strategically useful points on the planet and they got oil to boot.robtronik wrote:american empire building?
Why in the world would we start in the middle east?
Think about it.
Canada and mexico and south america would be easier targets. Cuba woulda been our vacation spot by now.
Man if you look into any war, most of the battles are about strategically useful places and not usually on your doorstep.
come on man, that is a much better apples vs carrots comment because the US has attacked a completely different country to who attacked the USrobtronik wrote: We didn't start this thing (we were attacked you know), but the philosophy of taking out rougue nations is their peril, not ours (as you can well see). Taliban, gone. Saddam, out. Al Qaeda, desperately trying to remain intact and losing every day.
.
It's been widely known and even the leaders have avoided making the connection - Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq.
Iraq was no threat to anyone, GWBs daddy etc took a way the last of his potential LOCAL threat 15 years ago.
If I'm one of those fools you should re-read, I was kind of agreeing with you, I was just saying comparisons are pointless - but I definitely understand the importance of learning from the past - but the use of Nazis as an example nowdays is so common it's lost any meaning and just makes people not listenD DAS wrote:Well, the Nazi comment was originally made as a joke you whiney fools. ....
ok you got me.Morphos wrote:Tomatoes are fruit.robtronik wrote: Yeah, yeah, I know. Carrots and tomatoes are vegetables, therefore they both taste the same.
to the other poster above about the fascism POV: you want to argue specifics? I can do that, but first we have to agree (or agree to disagree) on a common framework to have a discussion that can go somewhere useful.
by parroting a definition of fascism that isn't even correct (by my understanding of it), then we can't have a discussion on this.
So, that's the problem. Fascism, here is the definition:
" 1. Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control."
SO, go for it. Tell me how the U.S. has "suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship" as well as belligerent nationalism and racism.
GO FOR IT.
Make the case. Then tell me how other countries who are democracies are any different/better/worse than the U.S. at managing civil rights.
THEN, compare those issues with Iran, Saddam's Iraq, Mussolini's Italy, and Hitler's Nazi Germany.
I'm game for a conversation about this, but I'm not going to accept the fascism comment at your word, which by the way, your definition of it is INCORRECT.
I'm listening.
rob.
Well, the last I checked, we are trying to LEAVE Iraq and let them run their own country. But right now we can't. Its too unstable. We help provide stability.forge wrote:what a bizarre take - are you serious? The US already runs the Americas, that would be an utterly pointless thing to do - Iraq on the other hand is one of the most strategically useful points on the planet and they got oil to boot.robtronik wrote:american empire building?
Why in the world would we start in the middle east?
Think about it.
Canada and mexico and south america would be easier targets. Cuba woulda been our vacation spot by now.
Man if you look into any war, most of the battles are about strategically useful places and not usually on your doorstep.
come on man, that is a much better apples vs carrots comment because the US has attacked a completely different country to who attacked the USrobtronik wrote: We didn't start this thing (we were attacked you know), but the philosophy of taking out rougue nations is their peril, not ours (as you can well see). Taliban, gone. Saddam, out. Al Qaeda, desperately trying to remain intact and losing every day.
.
It's been widely known and even the leaders have avoided making the connection - Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq.
Iraq was no threat to anyone, GWBs daddy etc took a way the last of his potential LOCAL threat 15 years ago.
Plus, we are legally obligated by the Geneva convention to stay.
My point was that if we were about Empire building, we'd take the easy pickings first.
Why try to maintain a place halfway around the world for oil when we could just ramshackle Venezuela who is our 4th highest supplier of oil?
This is just one example. It's not strange, but those that want to believe the empire building argument have a hard time accepting anything that counters one's belief that the U.S. is out to take over other countries.
Tell me, how the United States of Afghanistan looking?
rob.
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DeadlyKungFu
- Posts: 3603
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:26 pm
Uh... W declared Mission Accomplished on Iraq years ago, there is no plan to leave, there never was an exit strategy. The US will not get out of Iraq until the US says Iraq is in proper shape, which we never will say. That would only happen if they become a theocratic (christian) democracy kissing the US's butt.robtronik wrote:Well, the last I checked, we are trying to LEAVE Iraq and let them run their own country. But right now we can't. Its too unstable. We help provide stability.
Plus, we are legally obligated by the Geneva convention to stay.
My point was that if we were about Empire building, we'd take the easy pickings first.
Why try to maintain a place halfway around the world for oil when we could just ramshackle Venezuela who is our 4th highest supplier of oil?
The Geneva Convention?!?!?!?! W had his lawyer declare that thing null and void. We're also held to the Geneva Convention to not torture prisoners.
Iraq is/was an easy target, nobody likes them, unstable government... and a boatload of oil, more than Venezuela.
Look at Central America from the 70s through the 90s, the idea is to find an unstable governement, send in the CIA/military to support the rebels, install US companies to take the resources and use the people, and leave. It's so much easier than taking over the country, just lease it for a while.
Re: Fascism... the angle of the compaison to Bush is that Fascism is often linked to national corporatism, a government that favors corporations over the people. Bush definitely considers himself above the common man, more of a dictator than a president (he's a homophobic, racist, classist close minded fundamentalist christian).
THE US IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, it's a republic and we're getting further and further away from that every election. First it was the breakdown of the 2 party system, now it's extremely suspect election practices (Karl Rove must die, or turn Democrat
). Why the hell do we think we can spread what we don't have?Iraq = Oil.
Not that anyone's going to change anyone's minds here...
Forge you nor anyone else hear are really whiney fools. And I agree I used to think the whole nazi slam was stupid. U ntil I started finding that a lot of it is true and our leaders family even has direct links to the 3rd riech. So let's just say that an old business assosiate of Hitler has a Grandson who is running the United States, does the make the whole Nazi thing out of date and irelavant to the situation,,no, it makes it very reliavant to the situation. George Bushes political strategist Karl Rove has a grandpa who did the same kind of work for Nazi Germany and helped build the Birkenau death camp.
Hey I love my country, I am just pissed a bunch of cronies have hijacked our nation and done evrything our constitution is against. And violated the geneva convention for that matter.
for those of you who can read, here is more reading material:
George W. Bush's grandfather helped finance the Nazi Party. Karl Rove's grandfather allegedly helped run the Nazi Party, and helped build the Birkenau Death Camp. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian father volunteered for the infamous Nazi SA and became a ranking officer.
Together, they have destabilized California and are on the brink of bringing it a new Reich. With the Schwarzenegger candidacy they have laid siege to America's largest state, lining it up for the 2004 election.
The Bush family ties to the Nazi party are well known. In their 1994 Secret War Against the Jews, Mark Aarons and John Loftus use official US documents to establish that George Herbert Walker, George W. Bush's maternal great-grandfather, was one of Hitler's most important early backers. He funneled money to the rising young fascist through the Union Banking Corporation.
In 1926, Walker arranged to have his new son-in-law, Prescott Bush---father of President George Bush I, grandfather of George Bush II---hired as Vice President at W.A. Harriman and Company. Prescott became a senior partner when Harriman merged with a British-American investment company to become Brown Brothers Harriman. In 1934 Prescott Bush joined the Board of Directors of Union Banking.
The bank helped Hitler rise to power. It also helped him wage war. As late as July 31, 1941---well after the Nazi invasion of Poland---the U.S. government froze $3 million in Union Banking assets linked to Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen was noted in the American press as a "German industrialist and original backer of Adolph Hitler."
Loftus writes that Thyssen's "American friends in New York City [were] Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker, the father and father-in-law of a future President of the United States." That would be the current president's father, George Herbert Walker Bush, also the former CIA director.
On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi Germany's banking operations in New York City, which were under the direction of Prescott Bush. The government seized control of Union Banking Corporation under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The liquidation yielded a reported $750,000 apiece for Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker. The book, The Splendid Blonde Beast: Money, Law and Genocide, goes into exhaustive detail on Bush-Harriman Nazi money laundering. More recently, Michael Kranish covers the same Bush-Nazi relationships in The Rise of the Bush Family Dynasty published in the Boston Globe. Loftus documents that "Prescott Bush knowingly served as a money launderer for the Nazis. Remember that Union Bank's books and accounts were frozen by the U.S. Alien Property Custodian in 1942 and not released back to the Bush family until 1951."
Often ignored are the Bush family's post-World War II dealings with former Nazis. John Foster Dulles, who had worked with the Bush family in the Harriman Company in laundering money for Nazi Germany, was Dwight Eisenhower's Secretary of State. His brother Allen became CIA director.
As Martin Lee documents in The Beast Reawakens, American intelligence recruited numerous top Nazis to spy on the Soviets during the Cold War. Many established connections to the Bush family that had helped finance their original rise to power. In 1988 Project Censored, in its top award, noted "how the major mass media ignored, overlooked or undercovered at least ten critical stories reported in America's alternative press that raised serious questions about the Republican candidate, George Bush, dating from his reported role as a CIA 'asset' in 1963 to his presidential campaign's connection with a network of anti-Semites with Nazi and fascist affiliations in 1988." Investigative reporter Russ Bellant established ties between the Republican Party and former Axis Nazis and fascists.
In 2000 and 2001 the Columbus Alive published a series of articles documenting further links between Bush, Sr. and the Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his own fascist networks in Japan and Korea.
Karl Rove has parallel ties. The shadowy Rove serves as "Bush's Brain" in the current White House. He is the political mastermind behind the California coup, and is now in the headlines for outing Valerie Plame, the CIA wife of Ambassador Joseph Wilson. A consummate strategist, Rove may have outed Plame in retaliation for Wilson's failure to back up the Bush claim that Saddam Hussein was buying nuclear weapons materials in Africa. According to some published reports, as many as seventy CIA operatives have been put at risk by Rove's retaliatory strike.
According to Wilson, and to Retired U.S. Navy Lt. Commander Al Martin (www.almartinraw.com), Rove's grandfather was Karl Heinz Roverer, the Gauleiter of Oldenburg. Roverer was Reich-Statthalter---Nazi State Party Chairman---for his region. He was also a partner and senior engineer in the Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurburo A. G. engineering firm, which built the Birkenau death camp, at which tens of thousands of Jews, Gypsies, dissidents and other were slaughtered en masse.
Rove, who has been based in Utah and associated with the Mormon Church, is widely viewed as the chief engineer of the current Bush administration. He and Tom DeLay are attempting to force the Texas legislature to redistrict its Congressional delegations, adding seven sure seats to the Republican column. By controlling the state houses in New York, Florida, Texas and California, the GOP would have a lock on the four largest states in the union, and thus the ability to manipulate vote counts and strip voter registration rolls in the run-up to the 2004 election.
Rove is a prime behind-the-scenes mover in the Schwarzenegger campaign. On May 1, 1939, a year after the Nazis took control of Schwarzenegger's native Austria, his father Gustav, voluntarily joined Hilter's infamous Strumabteilung (SA), "brown shirt" stormtroopers. This was just six months after the brown shirts played a key role in the bloody Kristallnacht attacks on Germany's Jewish community.
The Vienna daily Der Standard noted recently that "Gustav, a high-ranking Nazi, brought up the bespectacled, rather frail boy with an iron fist and quite a few slaps in the face." Arnold's father favored a Hitler-style mustache in photos.
On October 3, ABC News broke the story of Schwarzenegger's 1977 interview in which he was asked whom he admired. Schwarzenegger replied, "I admire Hitler, for instance, because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education, up to power. I admire him for being such a good public speaker and for what he did with it."
To cover himself, Schwarzenegger has made substantial donations to the Los Angeles-based Wiesenthal Center, which tracks down ex-Nazis. Arnold has also renounced Hitler.
But he has not renounced his friendship with fellow Austrian Kurt Waldheim, the one-time head of the United Nations with known Nazi ties. The book Arnold: An Unauthorized Biography, documents Arnold toasting Waldheim, who had participated in Nazi atrocities during World War II, at his wedding to Maria Shriver. "My friends don't want me to mention Kurt's name, because of all the recent Nazi stuff and the U.N. controversy," Arnold said. "But I love him and Maria does to, and so thank you, Kurt."
On May 17, 2001, Schwarzenegger also met with Kenneth "Kenny Boy" Lay of Enron at the Peninsula Hotel in Los Angeles. Through the utility deregulation plan signed into law by Pete Wilson, Schwarzenegger's chief advisor, California was destabilized, bankrupting the state government and opening the door for Tuesday's recall election. Lay has been George W. Bush's chief financial backer, and a close associate of Karl Rove's.
According to Bob Woodward's Bush at War, Bush attended a New York Yankees game soon after the September 11 World Trade Center disaster. He wore a fireman's jacket. As he threw out the first pitch, the crowd roared. Thousands of fans stuck out their arms with thumbs up. Karl Rove, sitting in the box of Yankee owner George Steinbrenner, likened the roar of the crowd to "a Nazi rally."
He would know.
Hey I love my country, I am just pissed a bunch of cronies have hijacked our nation and done evrything our constitution is against. And violated the geneva convention for that matter.
for those of you who can read, here is more reading material:
George W. Bush's grandfather helped finance the Nazi Party. Karl Rove's grandfather allegedly helped run the Nazi Party, and helped build the Birkenau Death Camp. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian father volunteered for the infamous Nazi SA and became a ranking officer.
Together, they have destabilized California and are on the brink of bringing it a new Reich. With the Schwarzenegger candidacy they have laid siege to America's largest state, lining it up for the 2004 election.
The Bush family ties to the Nazi party are well known. In their 1994 Secret War Against the Jews, Mark Aarons and John Loftus use official US documents to establish that George Herbert Walker, George W. Bush's maternal great-grandfather, was one of Hitler's most important early backers. He funneled money to the rising young fascist through the Union Banking Corporation.
In 1926, Walker arranged to have his new son-in-law, Prescott Bush---father of President George Bush I, grandfather of George Bush II---hired as Vice President at W.A. Harriman and Company. Prescott became a senior partner when Harriman merged with a British-American investment company to become Brown Brothers Harriman. In 1934 Prescott Bush joined the Board of Directors of Union Banking.
The bank helped Hitler rise to power. It also helped him wage war. As late as July 31, 1941---well after the Nazi invasion of Poland---the U.S. government froze $3 million in Union Banking assets linked to Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen was noted in the American press as a "German industrialist and original backer of Adolph Hitler."
Loftus writes that Thyssen's "American friends in New York City [were] Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker, the father and father-in-law of a future President of the United States." That would be the current president's father, George Herbert Walker Bush, also the former CIA director.
On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi Germany's banking operations in New York City, which were under the direction of Prescott Bush. The government seized control of Union Banking Corporation under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The liquidation yielded a reported $750,000 apiece for Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker. The book, The Splendid Blonde Beast: Money, Law and Genocide, goes into exhaustive detail on Bush-Harriman Nazi money laundering. More recently, Michael Kranish covers the same Bush-Nazi relationships in The Rise of the Bush Family Dynasty published in the Boston Globe. Loftus documents that "Prescott Bush knowingly served as a money launderer for the Nazis. Remember that Union Bank's books and accounts were frozen by the U.S. Alien Property Custodian in 1942 and not released back to the Bush family until 1951."
Often ignored are the Bush family's post-World War II dealings with former Nazis. John Foster Dulles, who had worked with the Bush family in the Harriman Company in laundering money for Nazi Germany, was Dwight Eisenhower's Secretary of State. His brother Allen became CIA director.
As Martin Lee documents in The Beast Reawakens, American intelligence recruited numerous top Nazis to spy on the Soviets during the Cold War. Many established connections to the Bush family that had helped finance their original rise to power. In 1988 Project Censored, in its top award, noted "how the major mass media ignored, overlooked or undercovered at least ten critical stories reported in America's alternative press that raised serious questions about the Republican candidate, George Bush, dating from his reported role as a CIA 'asset' in 1963 to his presidential campaign's connection with a network of anti-Semites with Nazi and fascist affiliations in 1988." Investigative reporter Russ Bellant established ties between the Republican Party and former Axis Nazis and fascists.
In 2000 and 2001 the Columbus Alive published a series of articles documenting further links between Bush, Sr. and the Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his own fascist networks in Japan and Korea.
Karl Rove has parallel ties. The shadowy Rove serves as "Bush's Brain" in the current White House. He is the political mastermind behind the California coup, and is now in the headlines for outing Valerie Plame, the CIA wife of Ambassador Joseph Wilson. A consummate strategist, Rove may have outed Plame in retaliation for Wilson's failure to back up the Bush claim that Saddam Hussein was buying nuclear weapons materials in Africa. According to some published reports, as many as seventy CIA operatives have been put at risk by Rove's retaliatory strike.
According to Wilson, and to Retired U.S. Navy Lt. Commander Al Martin (www.almartinraw.com), Rove's grandfather was Karl Heinz Roverer, the Gauleiter of Oldenburg. Roverer was Reich-Statthalter---Nazi State Party Chairman---for his region. He was also a partner and senior engineer in the Roverer Sud-Deutche Ingenieurburo A. G. engineering firm, which built the Birkenau death camp, at which tens of thousands of Jews, Gypsies, dissidents and other were slaughtered en masse.
Rove, who has been based in Utah and associated with the Mormon Church, is widely viewed as the chief engineer of the current Bush administration. He and Tom DeLay are attempting to force the Texas legislature to redistrict its Congressional delegations, adding seven sure seats to the Republican column. By controlling the state houses in New York, Florida, Texas and California, the GOP would have a lock on the four largest states in the union, and thus the ability to manipulate vote counts and strip voter registration rolls in the run-up to the 2004 election.
Rove is a prime behind-the-scenes mover in the Schwarzenegger campaign. On May 1, 1939, a year after the Nazis took control of Schwarzenegger's native Austria, his father Gustav, voluntarily joined Hilter's infamous Strumabteilung (SA), "brown shirt" stormtroopers. This was just six months after the brown shirts played a key role in the bloody Kristallnacht attacks on Germany's Jewish community.
The Vienna daily Der Standard noted recently that "Gustav, a high-ranking Nazi, brought up the bespectacled, rather frail boy with an iron fist and quite a few slaps in the face." Arnold's father favored a Hitler-style mustache in photos.
On October 3, ABC News broke the story of Schwarzenegger's 1977 interview in which he was asked whom he admired. Schwarzenegger replied, "I admire Hitler, for instance, because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education, up to power. I admire him for being such a good public speaker and for what he did with it."
To cover himself, Schwarzenegger has made substantial donations to the Los Angeles-based Wiesenthal Center, which tracks down ex-Nazis. Arnold has also renounced Hitler.
But he has not renounced his friendship with fellow Austrian Kurt Waldheim, the one-time head of the United Nations with known Nazi ties. The book Arnold: An Unauthorized Biography, documents Arnold toasting Waldheim, who had participated in Nazi atrocities during World War II, at his wedding to Maria Shriver. "My friends don't want me to mention Kurt's name, because of all the recent Nazi stuff and the U.N. controversy," Arnold said. "But I love him and Maria does to, and so thank you, Kurt."
On May 17, 2001, Schwarzenegger also met with Kenneth "Kenny Boy" Lay of Enron at the Peninsula Hotel in Los Angeles. Through the utility deregulation plan signed into law by Pete Wilson, Schwarzenegger's chief advisor, California was destabilized, bankrupting the state government and opening the door for Tuesday's recall election. Lay has been George W. Bush's chief financial backer, and a close associate of Karl Rove's.
According to Bob Woodward's Bush at War, Bush attended a New York Yankees game soon after the September 11 World Trade Center disaster. He wore a fireman's jacket. As he threw out the first pitch, the crowd roared. Thousands of fans stuck out their arms with thumbs up. Karl Rove, sitting in the box of Yankee owner George Steinbrenner, likened the roar of the crowd to "a Nazi rally."
He would know.
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DeadlyKungFu
- Posts: 3603
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:26 pm
that's all fairly well known.
On the internet people are as sick of hearing ANYTHING compared to Nazis as they are sick of hearing that we're in Iraq to get them back for 9/11.
It's also like comparing Ableton to winamp, similar, but completely different in execution, scope and depth.
Yes, W is an a-hole screwing up the world from his miopic points of view, but he's no Hitler.
Can we got an [OT] in the thread subject line???
On the internet people are as sick of hearing ANYTHING compared to Nazis as they are sick of hearing that we're in Iraq to get them back for 9/11.
It's also like comparing Ableton to winamp, similar, but completely different in execution, scope and depth.
Yes, W is an a-hole screwing up the world from his miopic points of view, but he's no Hitler.
Can we got an [OT] in the thread subject line???
??? erm...what's your point - invade a sovereign nation murder over 100,000 mostly women and chilren and then hail yourselves heroes for not pulling out and leaving it to be even worse? now that's a strange take on heroism.robtronik wrote:
Well, the last I checked, we are trying to LEAVE Iraq and let them run their own country. But right now we can't. Its too unstable. We help provide stability.
Anyway, part of the problem is like the fact you keep saying "we" - like everyone in the USA is all collectively doing it - it's that kind of blind patriotism that is the problem and that leads to the loss of democracy and freedom, but if you are happy to be included with dubbya and have all those innocent deaths on you head then so be it
I deliberately avoided saying "you" but instead "the USA or Gov't because I wanted to make the distinction that most of the average joes at the bottom have no real idea what goes on in the upper echelons of power. And I'm absolutely certain whatever take we all think we have, the truth is far more shady and disturbing.
that isnt a very well thought out point, and quite simplistic and naive - the USA already runs the world economically, and when it says jump most countries say how high - but what do you do then when you come accross countries with strong different religious beliefs who arent interested in following suit?robtronik wrote: My point was that if we were about Empire building, we'd take the easy pickings first.
Why try to maintain a place halfway around the world for oil when we could just ramshackle Venezuela who is our 4th highest supplier of oil?
It makes alot of sense to have a big presence in that region, and it's as much about strategic postioning as it is about oil, Iraq is THE best placed country to have a very significant strategic advantage in that region, just take a look at a map.
I will not make any Bush/Hitler remarks anymore.
You are right he is no Hitler. He is just another kind of piece of shit.
Hitler was a crunchy piece of shit with peanuts in it.
Bush is more of a wet, pasty, spongy, mustard color kinda shit.
I will not confuse the two and annoy everyone anymore.
Quite frankly, I give a shit less about Bush, Hitler, and all politics. We are like a run away train right now and will not get better until we derail off the tracks.
I just love adding gas to an online political fire
peace ya all!
You are right he is no Hitler. He is just another kind of piece of shit.
Hitler was a crunchy piece of shit with peanuts in it.
Bush is more of a wet, pasty, spongy, mustard color kinda shit.
I will not confuse the two and annoy everyone anymore.
Quite frankly, I give a shit less about Bush, Hitler, and all politics. We are like a run away train right now and will not get better until we derail off the tracks.
I just love adding gas to an online political fire
peace ya all!
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The Phat Conductor
- Posts: 1768
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
wow.
i had no idea what a can of worms this thread would turn out to be.
thanks to all the contributors, and special respect to robtronik for providing counterpoint to make it interesting. i know how hard it can be to find youself embroiled in a political debate with a ton of faceless adversaries online and you did well mate.
one thing i think we can all agree on is our good intentions. as wack as a lot of this stuff is, it is great to see people passionate about it, and about their fellow humans. most folks these days just languish in apathy, it is refreshing to see such a spirited debate.
peace!
d
i had no idea what a can of worms this thread would turn out to be.
thanks to all the contributors, and special respect to robtronik for providing counterpoint to make it interesting. i know how hard it can be to find youself embroiled in a political debate with a ton of faceless adversaries online and you did well mate.
one thing i think we can all agree on is our good intentions. as wack as a lot of this stuff is, it is great to see people passionate about it, and about their fellow humans. most folks these days just languish in apathy, it is refreshing to see such a spirited debate.
peace!
d
ill gates aka the phat conductor
producer, performer + ableton/music teacher
http://www.illgates.com
producer, performer + ableton/music teacher
http://www.illgates.com
you aint been around here long have ya!The Phat Conductor wrote:wow.
i had no idea what a can of worms this thread would turn out to be.
thanks to all the contributors, and special respect to robtronik for providing counterpoint to make it interesting. i know how hard it can be to find youself embroiled in a political debate with a ton of faceless adversaries online and you did well mate.
one thing i think we can all agree on is our good intentions. as wack as a lot of this stuff is, it is great to see people passionate about it, and about their fellow humans. most folks these days just languish in apathy, it is refreshing to see such a spirited debate.
peace!
d
You should try to look at the bright side. If an assteroid(that's a really huge hemorrhoid) were to ever threaten the earth, the Iranians could blast it to smithereens with their nucular weapons. But if that don't work, then the US could zap it with one of them there particle weapons... as a back-up plan. Might save the world someday- who knows.
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miTunes
miTunes
I don't post here much... but you're a fucking idiotrobtronik wrote:american empire building?
Why in the world would we start in the middle east?
Think about it.
Canada and mexico and south america would be easier targets. Cuba woulda been our vacation spot by now.
I don't think so guys. Again, your perception of what is going is warped.
We didn't start this thing (we were attacked you know), but the philosophy of taking out rougue nations is their peril, not ours (as you can well see). Taliban, gone. Saddam, out. Al Qaeda, desperately trying to remain intact and losing every day.
Empire building? Let me just say that it is very much on our minds the dependence on oil that makes these regions (including Venezuela, btw) an achilles heel. Even Bush has stated that alternative fuel sources need to be created. There is too much money and influence floating around those regions that are ruled by fascists dictatorships.
You guys want to look for bad guys? You are looking in the wrong direction people.
Like I said, who wants to eliminate free speech? Who wants to eliminate the rights of women? who wants end religious tolerance? Who wants sharia law?
yep, you guessed it: radical islamists who use terrorist means to achieve their objectives.
This is also a war of ideas and right now, they are winning the smaller battles of ideas with people like yourselves because they have you convinced that their war is justified and the real enemy is the U.S.. That's too bad, IMO.
rob.