F*** Off Live 6

[AdamJay]

to hear the talk of 6 means to me that the marketeers have access to too much coffee or a buy out is in the wind

you couldn't possibly know how much you are just fishing right now...

the only thing said about v.6 is a release QUARTER, and 1 feature (multithreading). I personally wouldn't call that a new version announcement.

Apple gave us a release quarter for Tiger a year and a half before the release. Did they quit developing Panther? No.

Will Ableton quit developing and bug-fixing Live 5? No.

[forge]

Thanks for the heart warming sob story...My heart Bleeds. And as far as statistics go (The Poll) it makes no difference if the problems are still there. People on this forum all use live differently. Also I have not got 10 Years to wait right now I just want bugs fixed in version 5 (Which I paid for by the way).
I hope you are right and ableton do care about the current state of the program and its users, the reason I think not is because to announce live 6 with the state live 5 is in to me sounds like they've bailed out.We all want the same thing in the end (A good version but come on this version is very very very bad), If you could think about what I am saying and why I am saying it you'll see I have good reason to say it. Cause I am not here to hate I don't make shit up (If we all use this forum 2 kiss abletons ass, they get no truthful feedback and nothing will ever get fixed)

Peace

but this is my point - how can you really justify saying "this version is very very bad" when there are actually loads of us who are having no problems at all??

Of course I've thought about what you've said and why, and still I'm bewildered that you can feel like your one particular case is proven testament that it's a bad release and that they shouldnt event consider announcing 6 because YOU are having problems??

I know there are others having problems too, but my point (with the poll) was that really what you're saying is quite bizarre - that they should hold up progress completely because a handful of people are having problems?? what about the rest of us who arent? we have to wait do we? And how do we know it's not just your setup?

I've been involved in the last 3 major release betas so I know all about telling them what doesnt work - that is the whole point - you HAVE to tell them, so they know, but saying "it's very very bad" etc etc is not telling them. Telling them is outlining EXACTLY what you are doing to get the problem you're getting, in the kind of detail that will best help them fix it. Remember, if they are not experiencing that bug on their machines, you are the only way they'll even know that bug exists.

[forge]

..... if the code is buggy now how can new code based on bad code be better? ....

let me describe what actually happens with as one example memory leaks (as was explained to me by Robert Henke, so forgive me if I misquote, but I think the gist of it is here)

in the past the operating system would be allocated a fixed amount of ram for an application and that was all it would have to use for it. with modern operating systems they are dynamic and change it around according to what the application asks it to do - so say for example you have a hi-hat going though a reverb, while the hi hat is not playing the reverb is not functioning so it doesnt use cpu, but when it receives audio it becomes active for the split second the hi hat plays- during this time the application has to tell the operating system how much of a buffer it needs for the task and then lets it go when the task is finished

occasionally there are small tasks where the ram isnt released properly, and say for example something like the hi hat it might be only a tiny amount - like a byte or KB or whatever, but you can imagine if you are playing 16ths for an hour after a while it builds up, and this is a memory leak

so in most cases this all works the way it should, buffers are released when they should be etc, but occasionally you get a "bug" where it doesnt behave as planned - and quite often it's these very small ones that dont get addressed immediately because they can be hard to spot, and also because initially they're not show stoppers

but the point is, once they are identified and fixed they stay fixed - so there is no "bad code" that gets built on in the next version because quite often the small individual components are the same bits of code, so once they're fixed, they're fixed and the only thing that determines how quickly tht happens is how quickly somebody reports it and how well they describe what they were doing so that Ableton can actually figure out what's going on and fix it.

So you see why it's completely unhelpful to devote 6 page threads to whinging about how much we've all been let down by Ableton because I want it now and they havent fixed my particular problem quickly enough.

You're one user in many thousands so how do you think they would prioritise which bugs get fixed when?

The reason I'm defensive of Ableton is because I've also been on the receiving end of companies like Native Instruments, emagic, steinberg etc etc and they have got no where near as down and dirty with the end users as Ableton, in fact Abeleton make them all look like jokes.

ANd if you havent seen much presence lately it's because they're actually working their bollocks of on it, but if you really want to help get it right, get involved in the beta and put in a bit of effort to make sure you report bugs properly because that is the ONLY way they will know about some bugs - if they dont get them personally on their machines how would they??

[supster]

..... if the code is buggy now how can new code based on bad code be better? ....

let me describe what actually happens with as one example memory leaks ...

.... the point is, once they are identified and fixed they stay fixed - so there is no "bad code" that gets built on in the next version because quite often the small individual components are the same bits of code, so once they're fixed, they're fixed ...

You're one user in many thousands so how do you think they would prioritise which bugs get fixed when?

the thing about all of this here, is that the people (for whatever reason) can work the way they need to, are not recognizing the people that definitely cannot.

because its not your problem. so there is a definite tendency to not only not take the people that have legitimate, long term, showstopping problems seriously ...

but you guys (not singling you out forge, but for sake of the thread you are one of the people on the other side) are somehow not aware of the sheer number of people that have serious issues working

i think its important to realize - moreso for ableton, because its thier job to fix it - but i think its important to realize the following things:

its a lot of people - on a lot of different systems - using it in a variety of different ways - reporting the same consistant work-stopping problems over and over and over again.

so this is not isolated, its not always 'the users fault', some of us have been dealing with them for a long, long time now and have tried just about everything ... and i mean EVERYTHING .... short of slagging off hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of gear

so these are definitely things that are abletons responsibility to fix .. and OR: help us identify the factors that are contributing to say .. the arrange grid copy/paste/dup problem .. or the random audio glitching problem ..etc

no doubt about that.

none.

we are positive. you are not. but we are. as sure as i am sitting here, if you could come into my studio for 15 minutes and watch what im doing, what im trying to get done, and see exactly what im dealing with ...

and i could show you in detail the way im running my projects and what happens when i try and accomplish this or that ..

you would be positive too. again: no doubt about that. none at all.

so they are not 'a few little bugs'. they are maddenly frustrating, WORK STOPPING, horrible flaws that you are in the lucky position somehow of not having to deal with.

thats great. but please dont make all the same tired easy assumptions because its not your problem. its a bit self centered, honestly. it really is.

also:

this forum is just like any other, where you have a handful of regulars that make it a daily routine, and its easy to make the assumption that this represents everybody. but it doesnt, not even by a longshot.

dont just use the forum to get a handle on what people think of this product (version 5). find out what people in studios think, what the word on the street is.

i can tell you right now ... for sure ... that overall the general consensus is ... among producers and people that work with stuff like this for a living... that I know personally or have met ..

that version 5 is buggy, not ready for prime time software that they DONT use. people have tried it, it didnt work, they didnt come on the forum and post about it or create drama.

they just stuck with Live 4. lots of them man. ok? im not kidding you, word gets around and this is really happening. we're not imagining any of it

.

[supster]

by the way:

all this typing and trying to explain in words what we're experiencing pales in front of example. so here's one:

there is a track i just finished for release (finally) that's demoed on my myspace profile. its the first thing that comes up when you hit my page

http://www.myspace.com/joshvon

ok. lots of layers, lots of soundesign, lots of arranging ... big project to do. but not anything that any product advertised as a DAW should be able to handle with minimum problems on my machine (specs i have detailed ad nauseum here for ableton another threads so i wont bother)

its wasnt a philharmonic orchestra, but it is representative of what this program should be able to reasonably be expected to handle.

i cannot even describe the amount of angst and hard work it took to be able to finish it on Live 5. everything took literally (estimating) 5 to 10x longer than it should have.

why? because the arrrange and session grid become so slow and sticky and non responsive - and the audio performance gets so iffy - and the whole thing bogs down so bad to the point where the interface freezes and locks up with the tiniest moves ...

... with anything more than about 10 audio tracks and maybe (if you are lucky) a VST or two running in real time. but highly doubtful on that .. because..

the only way to get anything done is to constantly think how to bounce things, and bounce them early. and even that doesnt do it after a while. because it gets progressively worse the more you work the project, even if you delete VSTs and practically run nothing but straight audio and a few mix effects (EQ 4, saturator, BBE .. etc) ..

.. which totally limits you creatively, if you are following what im saying. forget about using envelopes on paramters on realtime VSTs, when you cant even copy a freaking clip down the grid without the entire thing locking up and freezing for 30 seconds or more while Live "thinks" about what you're trying to do.

now do you understand? or no. because this is what we are dealing with, this is why people are not using it as a full DAW in most studios that i know of, and this is what we are praying that ableton understands more than anything else

.

[forge]

Okay, maybe I do underestimate the numbers, but they have to be aware of it - seriously, they pay such attention to everything else to the microscopic detail I know how much attention they pay to the forum, and you and others have been very vocal, so I cant for even one second imagine it's not being addressed, but I totally see how frustrating that must be

this is another reason to get really involved in the beta - if you think selfishly for a second, if you work on the bugs directly with Ableton then you can help get rid of the bugs you get - maybe this is one of the reasons I'm not having any problems because my bugs got dealt with during the beta??

true, you're right I shouldnt go on just this forum, all I'm really objecting to is the stance people are taking that Ableton are just ignoring it, because it's highly unlikely that they are

[supster]

they have to be aware of it

i know they are.

took a while to get any feedback on that though, honestly, about the main big issues people are dealing with. really felt like we had to work at it hard there for a while to get a nod that it was understood and they are working on it.

anyway all this is made worse for people because its been since august, and each new release has not made much of a dent in the things im talking about. which as far as i can see are the main ones why people can hardly work (if at all) and are not upgrading because theyve tried or heard of it

this is why people are pissed off that they seem to be following the same release schedule they always have. we are not only stuck with something that is in the state its in for us, but we are wary that its going to be the same thing all over again

this is another reason to get really involved in the beta

i did for the release of 5 and i will definitely check this out to see if theres any improvement in what im talking about. for sure. have to

.

[radeon]

by the way:

all this typing and trying to explain in words what we're experiencing pales in front of example. so here's one:

there is a track i just finished for release (finally) that's demoed on my myspace profile. its the first thing that comes up when you hit my page

http://www.myspace.com/joshvon

ok. lots of layers, lots of soundesign, lots of arranging ... big project to do. but not anything that any product advertised as a DAW should be able to handle with minimum problems on my machine (specs i have detailed ad nauseum here for ableton another threads so i wont bother)

its wasnt a philharmonic orchestra, but it is representative of what this program should be able to reasonably be expected to handle.

i cannot even describe the amount of angst and hard work it took to be able to finish it on Live 5. everything took literally (estimating) 5 to 10x longer than it should have.

why? because the arrrange and session grid become so slow and sticky and non responsive - and the audio performance gets so iffy - and the whole thing bogs down so bad to the point where the interface freezes and locks up with the tiniest moves ...

... with anything more than about 10 audio tracks and maybe (if you are lucky) a VST or two running in real time. but highly doubtful on that .. because..

the only way to get anything done is to constantly think how to bounce things, and bounce them early. and even that doesnt do it after a while. because it gets progressively worse the more you work the project, even if you delete VSTs and practically run nothing but straight audio and a few mix effects (EQ 4, saturator, BBE .. etc) ..

.. which totally limits you creatively, if you are following what im saying. forget about using envelopes on paramters on realtime VSTs, when you cant even copy a freaking clip down the grid without the entire thing locking up and freezing for 30 seconds or more while Live "thinks" about what you're trying to do.

now do you understand? or no. because this is what we are dealing with, this is why people are not using it as a full DAW in most studios that i know of, and this is what we are praying that ableton understands more than anything else

.

This is perfect explainings of the problem to working with live under power cpu i could never writings like thisbut it is for sure the same for me as he explains so if I understand what he writings so should other peoples

[Nod]

this is why people are not using it as a full DAW in most studios that i know of, and this is what we are praying that ableton understands more than anything else.

Like Radeon I agree with pretty much your entire post Supster - I want to use Live as my main DAW in the studio and I want to be able to use Live confidently in front of my clients and be able to recommend it to them without adding caveats about performance.

I will take part in the 5.2 beta as much as is possible, including absolutely hammering it with some high track count .als, and do hope that the result can in some way go to help or be useful in fixing the problems that so many are having as regards full fledged DAW performance. Maybe we could even ask the Abe's for some webspace so folks with identified 'troublesome' sets could upload for other folks to test? Obviously it isn't going to be viable for those of us with 3Gb 'self contained folders' - but it could go some way to eliminating the smaller blips and workflow issues.

And purely IMHO - the Live 6 schedule should be put on hold until 5.xx is solid the same way that 4.14 was. Lots of new users, including myself, came on board thanks to seeing the hype surrounding the release of v5 and it's hardly a good introduction, to what is a great company, to then have to upgrade to a 'working' product.

[mike holiday]

Of course I've thought about what you've said and why, and still I'm bewildered that you can feel like your one particular case is proven testament that it's a bad release and that they shouldnt event consider announcing 6 because YOU are having problems??

I know there are others having problems too, but my point (with the poll) was that really what you're saying is quite bizarre - that they should hold up progress completely because a handful of people are having problems?? what about the rest of us who arent? we have to wait do we? And how do we know it's not just your setup?

[mike holiday]

live is more of an instrument

and only begining to be DAW

but what does DAW imply anyway

[hoffman2k]

live is more of an instrument

and only begining to be DAW

but what does DAW imply anyway

Right on.
More focus on LIVE PRODUCTION.
Less focus on ancient daw's...

be the box.....

[Nod]

live is more of an instrument

4.14 was definitely a viable hybrid between the sequencing instrument paradigm and a cutting edge DAW - v5 however is superficially the same application, with some minor bells & whistles, that appears to lack the same immediacy and response - especially under load - than v4. As a 'sequencing instrument' it is now less stable or reliable than previous versions and as a straight DAW it's resource hungry nature means that large multitrack projects result in performance akin to diving headfirst into a bucket of treacle. I hasten to add this isn't just on one system - as I've seen it on quite a few machines where it's actually been my recommendation to the user to buy Live for it's amazing creative possibilities.

and only begining to be DAW but what does DAW imply anyway

Sorry dude but if it handles audio on any computing platform then it's a DAW - the question of course is how efficiently the code deals with it. All of which is of course IMHO

[LOFA]

Supster- This track is sick (wistful longing jobs)

I too have pretty much blown off using Live as a DAW, which is what I was using it for originally (vesion 4) instead of Logic! Now, unless I am recording two tracks with my band-mate's laptop I record in Logic. And I really only like using Logic when I have to. Now it seems I only use Live as a an instrument or a sequencer. Wierd how backwards this all is eh?

I am hoping that either the dual G5 support in 6 or the potenial dualcore 64bit macintels will enable me to use live the way I want to, but I am not holding my breath, I spend my free time studying MAX/MSP because it seems like the only pragmatic choice (besides, perhaps a combinative variation of either plogue biddle reaktor and PD) for me.

Live 4 was so close on it's own. I never sould have imported those files into 5. I am disfunctional.

Beat repeat and saturator are dope however.

[mike holiday]

possibilities.

and only begining to be DAW but what does DAW imply anyway

Sorry dude but if it handles audio on any computing platform then it's a DAW

thats what im trying to say

mpc with a cd burner pretty much = DAW at some level