music theory question

[ILTK]

'learn all of music theory, forget it and play' (paraphrase)
-Miles Davis

Wasnt that Charlie Parker? (Miles may have said something like that to, not sure)

[DeadlyKungFu]

id just improvise a lot & experiment with lines, you soon learn what notes you can use. you dont need to know all this stuff, jimi hendrix played by ear & never knew anything about modes. just play what sounds right, thats all that counts in the end.

I do that on the keyboard because I can't play piano (not to imply at all that you can't play).

On the guitar, once I could play major/minor scales at any fret in any key the world went from black and white to color, when I'm really feeling it, the world goes to Technicolor. I was able to solo and carry a melody by just knowing the key of a song, a place I wouldn't have gotten to before.

Look at a piece of sheet music, a key is written into the staff and for all or most of the piece there are no #s or bs, jazz, classical, prog rock etc are all genres that push all theory limits, I'm talking popular music, 99% of what's ever been on the radio. Knowing keys and scales directly connects your instrument to a piece of music.

There is no need to know any theory to play music, figure out a tune, make money, be a Guitar God, but it isn't going to hurt.

Regarding Hendrix, up until 1967 when Jimi was 25 he was a road musician for some famous acts, he was a studio musician and he played in nightclubs in New York City. I doubt he had all that experience without picking up any theory along the way. He was a person like the rest of us, he didn't want a day job, he wanted to be a full time musician, it seems logical to me he had to pursue theory to some extent.


The other thing that always comes up is, "I make music that doesn't fit that theory and it sounds great, I don't like music theory". Well, that's a theory too. Music theory explains the patterns of music we westerners have been hearing for 100s of years, it's in our cultures, it's in our brains. Theory lays out why we feel certain ways when we hear music, minor is sad, a V7-I chord change is really strong.

'learn all of music theory, forget it and play' (paraphrase) -Miles Davis

Wasnt that Charlie Parker? (Miles may have said something like that to, not sure)

I think you're right.

[velocipedewheels]

maybe you can help me understand how half-diminished and diminished chords come from a major scale

Diminished chord - 1, b3, b5
In C that would be a Bdim chord
B D F - all of which fall in the C major scale

Half diminished 7th chord - 1, b3, b5, b7
In C it's built off of the 7th degree, B, so you have the notes
B D F A - all of which fall in the C major scale

BUT

Diminished 7 chord - 1 b3 b5 bb7
In C that would be a type of B chord:
B D F G# , the G# does NOT fall in the C major scale so it isn't diatonic to C major/A minor.
This screws me up time and again with the 4 note name of the diatonic diminished chord, the 4 note chord isn't just a dim7, it's half dim7, it's just a name but it always gets me. It stems from the rules of stacking major/minor thirds.

Dim chords are pretty much an unused corner of music theory, unless you're doing jazz and prog rock. In the rock/blues playing I've studied dim chords are very rare and usually incidental. The only time I ever consider them is on the web discussing music theory.

Right, well it doesn't have to exist in the major scale to be a chord of that scale, or a chord of that KEY SIGNATURE. Otherwise we wouldn't have very many chords.

The very definition of harmonizing a major scale is to create chords from the notes in that scale, to be diatonic. I'm sorry but your statement could not be more wrong (trying to get a point across without being a dick).

There are 7 modes, if you just take the 3, 4, and 5 note chords that's 21 chords per key, not enough?!?!


Again, my apologies for being a dick, I promise to chill the fuck out.

In the context of Ableton, just throw a scale or chord plug-in in front of your MIDI and everything will fall into place.

'learn all of music theory, forget it and play' (paraphrase)
-Miles Davis

The other person was thinking that each chord of a key signature, can only include notes from that key signature's scale. That was the confusion I was attempting to clear up. Guess I didn't do a terrific job of it. I was trying to convey that. I didn't take you as being a dick.

[longjohns]

so i'm curious,

can you list all the chords which you would consider to belong to Cmajor

[velocipedewheels]

so i'm curious,

can you list all the chords which you would consider to belong to Cmajor

I ii iii IV V VI viio I
C Dm Em F G A Bdim C

[DeadlyKungFu]

so i'm curious,

can you list all the chords which you would consider to belong to Cmajor

Oh man, you're gonna make me do all THAT? I can write them out but it's Saturday night, I'm chilling out, drinking a few and working on Nebulae's remix contest.
Writing the chords out was a great exercise for me to learn chord construction, I'll explain how to do it, if you want, post what you work out and I'll take a look. If you want to wait a few days I can write them out when I'm at work .
On my crib sheet I have the 3 and 4 note chords for the natural minor, harmonic and melodic minor scales.

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Harmonic minor	1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7
3 note chords	Im	IIo	bIII+	IVm	V	bVI	VIIo
4 note chords	IMm7	IIm7b5	bIIIM7+	IVm7	V7	bVIM7	VIIo
							
Natural minor	1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
3 note chords	Im	IIo	bIII	IVm	Vm	bVI	bVII
4 note chords	IMm7	IIm7b5	bIIIM7	IVm7	Vm7	bVIM7	bVII7
							
Melodic minor	1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
3 note chords	Im	IIm	bIII+	IV	V	VIo	VIIo
4 note chords	Im7	IIm7	bIIIM7+	IV7	V7	VIm7b5	VIIm7b5

So to find all the D chords that are diatonic to the C natural minor scale (the beatles dug this harmonization):
The notes are:
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
So, start on the D note (second mode but not called Dorian) and add every other note,
3 note chord: D F Ab - 1 b3 b5 - which is a Ddim chord
4 note chord:D F Ab C - 1 b3 b5 b7 - Dm7b5 (not a type of a dim chord)
5 note chord:D F Ab C Eb - 1 b2 b3 b5 b7 - a chord I can't name
6 note chord:D F Ab C Eb G - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b7 - some name
7 note chord:D F Ab C Eb G Bb- 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 - some name
8 note chord:D F Ab C Eb G Bb D- 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 - some name, same as above.

So, all those chords are in the key of C, as well as any chords you can make by leaving out any notes.

I hope that's enough to get you started, some of this theory stuff is easier to learn by pencil and paper. I used to pass time in meetings writing out scales, at least it kept me awake and it looked like I was taking notes.

In the bigger picture, below is a list I made of chords that I might find. As I was learning theory on the 'net I made a crib sheet, it's been invaluable. Also by staring at this list I caught the gist of chord naming convention, so I could probably figure out more chords here than are listed. Thank god the guitar only has 6 strings

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[b]Major chords[/b]
Major	1 3 5
5 -	1   5
6 -  	1 3 5 6
7-  (dom) 	1 3 5 b7
add9-  	1 3 5    9
6add9-   	1 3 5 6  9
9 (dom)- 	1 3 5 b7 9
11 (dom)- 	1 3 5 b7 9 11
13 (dom)- 	1 3 5 b7 9 13
M7- 	1 3 5  7
M9-  	1 3 5  7 9
sus2-  	1 2 5
sus4-  	1 4 5
sus2sus4- 	1 2 4  5
7sus4 (dom)- 	1 4 5 b7

[b]minor chords[/b]
minor- 	1 b3 5
m6-  	1 b3 5 6
m7-  	1 b3 5 b7
m add9- 	1 b3 5 9
m6 add9-  	1 b3 5 6 9
m9-  	1 b3 5 b7 9
m11-  	1 b3 5 b7 9 11
m13-  	1 b3 5 b7 9 13
mM7-  	1 b3 5 7

[b]aug/dim[/b]
+ (aug)-  	1 3 #5
+7-  	1 3 #5 b7
	
o (dim)-  	1 b3 b5
o7 (dim7)-  	1 b3 b5 bb7

I hope I got most of that right, I'm at a bit of an inebriated disadvantage right now

[longjohns]

Right, well it doesn't have to exist in the major scale to be a chord of that scale, or a chord of that KEY SIGNATURE. Otherwise we wouldn't have very many chords.

longjohns wrote:
so i'm curious,

can you list all the chords which you would consider to belong to Cmajor

I ii iii IV V VI viio I
C Dm Em F G A Bdim C

so where are all the other chords?

[longjohns]

kung fu, thanks for your long posts. i know how to work out all these chords and scales. some of it i've done already, some i will do eventually, some i probably never will because as you noted there, you come up with "chords" with no practical use.

because of the type of lessons i'm taking (jazz) and because of my advanced age/slower wit and body, and because of the vast number of scales and modes throughout the keys, i really need to pick my battles!

[velocipedewheels]

THe other chords were not specifically asked for.

You said C Major. That's what I wrote down. Generally we music educators assume that the student wants to start at the most basic level. And when we say C MAJOR generally that means triads.

You know what's funny? You were just testing me. I am so glad I didn't waste my time typing the sevenths out, as you weren't seeking help.

I guess that's what I get for getting involved in trying to help.

[longjohns]

(apologies for the long post, i'm completely embarrased about how long i've been typing this!)

Testing you? Well, sort of, I guess.

You told me that just because the notes aren't found in the C Major scale that it doesn't mean that it isn't a C Major chord. But when I asked what are all the C Major chords, no Bo7.

Partly what I've been after is some kind of justification for why i got jumped on for saying that Bdim7 is the vii of C harmonic minor. That's childish of me, so I apologize for that.

I was told by Kung fu that, while this was true, nevertheless I sounded like I didn't know what I was talking about. We figured out that he was talking 3-notes, I was talking 4-note 7th chords, he apologized for sounding like an asshole, done deal i guess.

As I said earlier, I found elsewhere some information about borrowed chords. This told me that a Bo7 chord could be considered to be in the key of C, by virtue of being borrowed from C harmonic minor. When I tried to get some acknowledgement of this, I was informed by PLB that this was wrong

longjohns wrote:

so is it correct to say that while Bo7 is not built from the C major scale, that it can be considered to be within the KEY of C major, by virtue of being borrowed from the parallel C harmonic minor


no it isn't in the key of C Major at all (without accidentals)...

it's relationship to c minor doesn't really have anything to do with it (with how you label it in C Major i mean)...

I don't know exactly what to make of that. I suppose this is just to clarify that a flat needs to be added to the A. Which is fine, but it was not really a point of confusion.

So, you have to use an accidental to get the Ab. Right, so we've flatted the 6. So what we've got now is C harmonic minor. (Natural minor would also have a flat 6, but would also have B flat rather than B natural)

......

Isn't the most interesting part of the question how this chord would be actually USED in this key? That's really what I'd like to figure out. I pulled up that chordspace plugin to see if I could see what the Bo7's function might be in C, but it looks like chordspace doesn't have any fully diminished chords.

Here's something else I found on the web:

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[b]The Leading Tone Seventh Chord[/b]
The leading tone seventh chord is a dominant-class chord because it has three tones in common with the dominant seventh chord of the key.

viio7 in a major key is spelled identically to the viio7 in a minor key. To achieve this spelling in major, the sixth scale degree must be lowered one half step.

viiø7 in a major key is a diatonic chord built on the leading tone.  It is used far less frequently than the diminished seventh chords.

Like the dominant 7th chord, the viio7 and viiø7 chords usually resolve to the tonic (I or i).

That seems to clearly state the function (getting back to I) but then makes me interested in why the fully diminished chord is more commonly used than the half diminished.


I still would be interested in opinions about the example I posted before:

(it's written in F)
G-7 -> C7#5 -> FMaj7 -> F#o7
G-7 -> G#o7 -> A-7 -> A-7/G

The F#o7 is obviously there as a way to get to G-7 (ii). There could also be a D-7 in it's place. But where does it come from? This is a bit different than our "argument" over C Major, because this dim chord is a half step up, instead of down, from the tonic.

My best ideas was/is that the F#o7 is a vii of G harmonic minor, so in a sense is vii -> i to G minor. The problem I see with this answer is that the G minor 7 chord has a flat 7, which is not in that harmonic minor scale. But maybe that's not a deal breaker.

I AM seeking help. But honestly I fell like I've recieved a lot more attitude than help. Regardless, I do appreciate everyone's time on this, looks like we've all wasted a lot of effort on this!

[DeadlyKungFu]

I AM seeking help. But honestly I fell like I've recieved a lot more attitude than help. Regardless, I do appreciate everyone's time on this, looks like we've all wasted a lot of effort on this!

To me it seems the tone of the thread was difficult to establish, theory can be tough to discuss because there's no many angles to look at it and so many different ways of notation. Also, these posts take time to compose, the longer you take to compose a post the more polarised ones opinions get, I find that leads me to not-so-nice posts sometimes, dwelling on a topic for too long.

No worries man, onward and upward...

My take on it all is that if a chord has the notes from scale X and only notes from scale X then it is diatonic to scale X.

www.dictionary.com says:
di·a·ton·ic adj. Music. Of or using only the seven tones of a standard scale without chromatic alterations.

My take on being IN KEY means to use notes from that key. So, to say a chord is in the key of C major because it's construction can be taken from C minor harmonic is not correct, that's bending the rules too much.

The whole point of this exercise is to take a key and instantly recognise which chords you can make out of the chosen 7 notes.

Does that help?

[longjohns]

My take on being IN KEY means to use notes from that key. So, to say a chord is in the key of C major because it's construction can be taken from C minor harmonic is not correct, that's bending the rules too much.

I think that's kind of where my thinking was towards the beginning of this thread, but after Velocipede pointed out that this isn't true, I dug into it a bit more and have come to see that's not really the case. The chord we've been going on and on about, Bo7, turns out to have a definite function in the key of C Major. Another example would be Db7, used as a tritone sub for G7. Again looking at that ChordSpace plug, there are lots of chords which can be used in the key of C which are built from notes not found in the C Major scale.

Here are the passages where I was getting this from:

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The chords used within a key are generally drawn from the major or minor scale associated with the tonic triad, but may also include borrowed chords, altered chords, secondary dominants, and the like. All of these chords, however, are used in conventional patterns which serve to establish the primacy of the tonic triad.

A borrowed chord is a chord borrowed from the parallel key. 

In music, the parallel minor or tonic minor of a particular major key is the minor key with the same tonic; similarly the parallel major of a minor key has the same tonic. For example, C major and C minor have different modes but both have the same tonic, C; so we say that C minor is the parallel minor of C major.

In the Baroque, Classical and Romantic eras, six chords borrowed from the parallel minor key are most commonly found (shown here in C major):
Diminished Supertonic Triad (ii°): D, F, A flat
Half-Diminished Supertonic Seventh (iiØ7): D, F, A flat, C
Major Triad on the Lowered Third Scale Degree, or "Flat Three" (♭III): E flat, G, B flat
Minor Subdominant (iv): F, A flat, C
Major Triad on the Lowered Sixth Scale Degree, or "Flat Six" (♭VI): A flat, C, E flat

blah blah blah, but notably:

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Fully Diminished Leading-Tone Seventh (vii°7): B, D, F, A flat

[DeadlyKungFu]

crazy...

go to www.wholenote.com and post your question on the theory board. Many of the people are quite amazing at wrestling with these topics and netiquette is in full effect. In particular is one guy named Jon Riley, he's been posting there for at least 7 years (from what I can tell) and has taught literally hundreds of us music theory. Of course there are many other gurus there, great site.

Good luck!!

[longjohns]

thanks for the link

[PLB]

So, you have to use an accidental to get the Ab. Right, so we've flatted the 6. So what we've got now is C harmonic minor. (Natural minor would also have a flat 6, but would also have B flat rather than B natural)

i don't know where you are getting the idea to call this b dimisished chord c harmonic minor. maybe that would help clear up some of the confusion...

yes, by changing the A to A flat you indeed get a chord that occurs naturally in C harmonic minor, but you don't call that chord C harmonic minor, you still call it a diminshed b (or viio)