Ableton Forum

btw jack, I can't figure out whether you're actually a staunch conservative or a troll that likes to anger liberals on the boards. Care to enlighten me as to which side you're on?

yeah but at least the national anthem has finally been translated.

does it seem strange to anyone else that mexicans have been here for a long time and they are only now getting around to translating the anthem?
I mean if I move to france I'm going to learn french and I'm going to learn their anthem in french and also in english. and I'm going to do both before I start popping out babies.

thelike5 wrote:

snowtires wrote:
i love how people like to church it up and call them 'undocumented immigrants' as if it's merely just some kind of paperwork loophole that's separating them from the rest of the population.

Above is what really prompted me to post...

I seriously had to read about three or four different sites to make sure this wasn't immigrants protesting but ILLEGAL immigrants who were protesting. Big difference. Until you have gone through the minimal effort of becoming a citizen I flat out don't want to hear or see the bitching. If you are not a contributing taxpayer, who can help better schools, roads, or programs designed to help the physically sick and needy, then fuck off. Your living in this Country illegally and have the balls to complain? What other country in the world would put up with this? And don't even get me started on the people who are chicken hawking on them and paying them low wages. All the more reason to educate yourself and become a legit citizen and stop allowing yur self to be taken advantage of.

Tell that to the Native Americans. There wasn't even a concept of money, taxes, borders, repetitive specialized jobs and all the American bullshit some 200 years ago. Americans suffer from some sort of collective short term memory loss, broght on by their arrogant egocentric view of living for themselves, disconnected from all other life.

Tear down all your artificial borders, fences. No private ownership of land, air or water. Earth National Park, where all NuNomads will roam and thrive in!

jackmazzotti wrote:they apper to have little to no interest in assimilating or learning english

...learn the language and culture of the country your in
(guess what if i move to another country I will learn their language... its something called respect)Jack

Word. I lived in Montréal Québec for a three years as an English speaker. When I got there, the first thing I did was take an 8 month French course. It's the responsibility of any immigrant to adapt to the culture which accepts you. I welcome all races of people, but if you don't want to assimilate, get out.

D'accord. J'ai habité a Montréal Québec pour trois ans comme un anglophone. Quand j'ai arrivé, le premiere chose que j'ai fait, j'ai pris un cours francais de huit mois. C'est la responsibilité de les immigrants pour adapter de la culture qui vous accepter. Les gens de toutes les races sont bienvenu, mais si vous ne voulez pas de assimiler, partez-vous.

sqook wrote:

jackmazzotti wrote:America is nothing more than a job market to these people

they are all waving Mexican and Dominican republic flags

go back there if its so great

otherwise learn the language and culture of the country your in
(guess what if i move to another country I will learn their language.. its something called respect)

my great grandparents did

This is funny; the same exact things happened to my ancestors, who were Irish. Nonetheless, those people got shit on for decades by people from their ivory towers, but now that they've "integrated" into american culture, I guess it's ok for them to hate on other immigrants.

This debate isn't about politics or immigration law at all. It's a chance for people to vent xenophobic and racist feelings without having to feel un-PC about it.

being pc is bringing the world down a piece at a time. no one knows what anyone else is actually thinking because they're all too worried about not offending someone.

it's easy to call 'racism' if you're looking for it. who are you to say that i'm not hispanic myself? or asian or african or indian or native american? do you think those people don't have strong feelings on this matter, too? white people are not the only ones who are pro-stronger immigration laws, you know. this is not about racism at all. this is about illegal aliens complaining that they don't want to be punished for the laws they're breaking. i don't think disliking someone because they have no respect for the laws of my country is racism.

plenty of people go through the proper channels every year and get here on a visa, work permit, whatever. as was said before, if you get denied a visa or even a temporary work permit, then that means someone somewhere decided that you won't be a worthwhile addition to our country, so we don't need you here.

it's the same for every country around the world. there was someone saying (in another thread) that they wanted to move to spain and everyone else came back with, 'good luck.' because it's hard to get a permit to move to ANY foreign country. don't just single out the us, we're not the only ones who are stingy about who gets to live in our country. we just get singled out because everyone in the world is trying to kick us while w has us down.

voidseeker wrote:

thelike5 wrote:

snowtires wrote:
i love how people like to church it up and call them 'undocumented immigrants' as if it's merely just some kind of paperwork loophole that's separating them from the rest of the population.

Above is what really prompted me to post...

I seriously had to read about three or four different sites to make sure this wasn't immigrants protesting but ILLEGAL immigrants who were protesting. Big difference. Until you have gone through the minimal effort of becoming a citizen I flat out don't want to hear or see the bitching. If you are not a contributing taxpayer, who can help better schools, roads, or programs designed to help the physically sick and needy, then fuck off. Your living in this Country illegally and have the balls to complain? What other country in the world would put up with this? And don't even get me started on the people who are chicken hawking on them and paying them low wages. All the more reason to educate yourself and become a legit citizen and stop allowing yur self to be taken advantage of.

Tell that to the Native Americans. There wasn't even a concept of money, taxes, borders, repetitive specialized jobs and all the American bullshit some 200 years ago. Americans suffer from some sort of collective short term memory loss, broght on by their arrogant egocentric view of living for themselves, disconnected from all other life.

Tear down all your artificial borders, fences. No private ownership of land, air or water. Earth National Park, where all NuNomads will roam and thrive in!

65 years ago, germans were sending jew to death camps and we were nuking japan because they attacked hawaii. now we rely on them for our cars and electronics. your point being? apparently americans aren't the only ones who suffer from memory loss

snowtires wrote:plenty of people go through the proper channels every year and get here on a visa, work permit, whatever. as was said before, if you get denied a visa or even a temporary work permit, then that means someone somewhere decided that you won't be a worthwhile addition to our country, so we don't need you here.

it's the same for every country around the world. there was someone saying (in another thread) that they wanted to move to spain and everyone else came back with, 'good luck.' because it's hard to get a permit to move to ANY foreign country. don't just single out the us, we're not the only ones who are stingy about who gets to live in our country. we just get singled out because everyone in the world is trying to kick us while w has us down.

Completely agreed. As an immigrant in another country, I fully understand how tough it can be for outsiders to gain the same rights as natural citizens. However, my original point is that people are inherently "groupist"... they divide themselves into groups based on religion, race, birthplace, etc. I think that this immigration debate isn't about national politics so much as an "us vs. them" mentality, which I find quite disturbing. Racist perhaps was a misleading word to use in my post, though, since it's a very loaded word..

snowtires wrote: being pc is bringing the world down a piece at a time. no one knows what anyone else is actually thinking because they're all too worried about not offending someone.

it's easy to call 'racism' if you're looking for it. who are you to say that i'm not hispanic myself or asian or african or native american? do you think those people don't have strong feelings on this matter, too? white people are not the only ones who are pro-stronger immigration laws, you know. this is not about racism at all. this is about illegal aliens complaining that they don't want to be punished for the laws they're breaking. i don't think disliking someone because they have no respect for the laws of my country is racism.

plenty of people go through the proper channels every year and get here on a visa, work permit, whatever. as was said before, if you get denied a visa or even a temporary work permit, then that means someone somewhere decided that you won't be a worthwhile addition to our country, so we don't need you here.

it's the same for every country around the world. there was someone saying (in another thread) that they wanted to move to spain and everyone else came back with, 'good luck.' because it's hard to get a permit to move to ANY foreign country. don't just single out the us, we're not the only ones who are stingy about who gets to live in our country. we just get singled out because everyone in the world is trying to kick us while w has us down.

I agree on some points - PC is for the birds...expose yourself as who you really are and what you really feel instead of being sneaky about it

get rid of affirmative action - it does nothing to encourage a person to do better than the next guy - let the best man or woman win - not the blackest or whitest

I'm the one who wants to move to Spain because I want a little Black and Spanish baby girl who will be 'hot' - I'll try my hardest and you know everything I've ever put my mind too, I've done <-- seriously

Now, this immigration thing - I have an idea...if you're against undocumented citizens and their rights to get some benefits or you feel they should be treated as felons then try this:

Next time you're in the Grocery Store, ask the check out person if the apples you are about to buy were picked by an Illegal

Next time you're in a restaurant about to order ask how much of this food was either harvestd or cooked by an illegal

If it was don't buy it - as long as there's work here they'll come here...as long as we keep using them for our benefits while giving them none we're the ones to blame, not them

They're human beings who have at least a human right to be treated as such. Not less than or even felons

Sure there's some bad apples in the bunch but there's far worse criminals who do far worse to EVERYONE's way of life than illegals <--and they're US CITIZENS

The biggest criminal of them all is sitting in DC right now stroking his chicken to a dope "girl on girl" scene of Connie Rice and Janet Reno! <--he's the one who should be deported to one of those countries in africa

100K plus killed in Africa in like a weekend - WTF!

I'm not political and don't pretend to know anything about politics but I believe in human rights - it's a beautiful thing to be alive despite all the problems in the world

sqook wrote: Completely agreed. As an immigrant in another country, I fully understand how tough it can be for outsiders to gain the same rights as natural citizens. However, my original point is that people are inherently "groupist"... they divide themselves into groups based on religion, race, birthplace, etc. I think that this immigration debate isn't about national politics so much as an "us vs. them" mentality, which I find quite disturbing. Racist perhaps was a misleading word to use in my post, though, since it's a very loaded word..

yeah, i can see what you mean by that. this debate has the appearance of one side versus another, but both sides have a bunch of people with multiple different agendas and reasons for taking the stance they're taking. some people ARE blatantly racist about this, but i think a majority of the people who are pro stricter laws feel that way because they feel like granting immigrants the right to vote and collect social security would be a serious perversion of our country's laws and constitution.

amendment 15 = The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

i'm obviously a firm supporter of stricter illegal immigration laws, because i think it's ridiculous that there are people willing to jump through the hoops to get into our country, when people from mexico can just waltz in and start demanding equal rights, as if they were owed ANYTHING, let alone equal rights. i'm not saying treat them like animals, they're people like you or me, i'm talking equal political rights, equal right to welfare, etc. none of this is owed to them. i heard some interview with one person saying (through a translator of course) that she wanted to have the right to vote, to have her voice heard. you aren't a citizen of this country! you can't vote! if we let illegal immigrants vote, why not just let that family from germany who's visiting disney world stop by the voting booth and vote for our next president? it's ridiculous, to say the least. you want to complain? fine, go home where people actually care what you have to say.

djadonis206 wrote:Next time you're in the Grocery Store, ask the check out person if the apples you are about to buy were picked by an Illegal

Next time you're in a restaurant about to order ask how much of this food was either harvestd or cooked by an illegal

If it was don't buy it - as long as there's work here they'll come here...as long as we keep using them for our benefits while giving them none we're the ones to blame, not them

lucky for me i grew up on a farm and live in rural pennsylvania, so i probably know most of the guys who picked the corn and killed the turkey i get from the supermarket.

You? a hick??

I never would have guessed.

ahyuck! good one! you've been waiting all day to say something mean to me, haven't you. i'm glad i made your day. hey! it's 1 o'clock! mcdonald's has been serving lunch for three hours now, what are you doing sitting behind a computer? go man, go! you're never gonna keep all that weight on if you stop eating.

So it's probably not a good idea to hang out at the next rally with my "Remember The Alamo" sign?

snowtires wrote: people say, 'oh, my grandparents were immigrants, immigration was the basis of this country' yeah, LEGAL immigration. my grandfather came to this country in 1929 as a legal, documented immigrant. he worked to send money home to his family in ireland, his sister eventually came over, and they both became american citizens. he came from another country, worked, paid taxes and became a citizen. that's the american dream. coming here to work illegally is not part of that equation. actually, maybe illegal immigrants ARE living the american dream, seeing as they don't pay taxes.

That argument is bogus but I keep seeing it everywhere. Last time I checked most of our ancestors that came over on the boat didn't check beforehand whether they'd be "legal" or not when they arrived or whether the US hit its immigrant quota that year. Nope. They simply got on that boat and sailed to the new world in hopes of opportunity. And frankly, I'd hope that my ancestors would've sidestepped immigration officers if upon arrival they were told to turn back (I bet yours would have). You really think my great-great grandpa would say "oh sorry to offend your quotas this year, I'll just be getting back on this steamboat and going back to the podunk bullshit country of mine that's being ravaged by world war I, poverty, and disease. But thanks anyways!"

My point is don't blame the illegal immigrants for coming here in contravention of the law. They're doing what any of us would do in their circumstances. While our immigration and law enforcement officers need to enforce the current laws, our public doesn't need to treat illegal immigrants with moral condemnation. They aren't intentionally disrespecting our laws; they're intentionally getting the fudge out of whatever shithole country they're fleeing. It's a statutory wrong; not a moral wrong. Remember, the overwhelming majority of illegals are overstays on their visas (like 80% of my co-workers); not border jumping fava beans.

The closing the borders issue is seperable from the naturalization issue. I say build a wall if it will work (and it's not too expensive). But again, the majority of illegals come thru our airport terminals legally (at the time) so it seems kind've pointless. I'm just for a reasonable process by which to become naturalized here (for those here illegally and those coming in). But no one here is gonna support opening our borders to whoever, whenever. It is a fundamental right of any nation to enforce the ingress/egress of its inhabitants.

Trust me when I say this, the naturalization process right now is pretty stupid. USCIS (former INS) is opposing counsel on 1/2 my cases (I'm an immigration lawyer in Chicago). They're complete morons and reject any residency adjustment application simply out of habit. Bona fide marriage, refugee status, or family connections do little to get people the remedy they're supposed to be afforded under the law; at least not until thousands of dollars are spent and years of unnecessary litigation. It's beuracracy at it's worst. So...make the system fair and efficient and then bitch about illegals.

EDITED TO ADD: Let me bring this issue into perspective. With free trade and globablization (which I am a supporter of) you have a fundamental hypocricy. Economies are composed of (1) capital, (2) goods/services, and (3) labor. While free trade agreements have allowed capital and goods/services to flow freely, labor cannot. On a purely economical viewpoint, it doesn't make sense and is inefficient. Labor should be able to follow the work (like how the EU functions today). Of course, for political and nat'l security reasons this cannot be so in today's world. So while we're building an economic system that transcends current political realities, we're still maintaining a political system that is incompatible on a fundamental level with that economic system. It's a problem. So my point, again, is don't blame labor (immigrants) for following the capital and goods/services. It's the natural function of labor to do so.

There is no such thing as illegal immigrants, only illegal borders. That's all I have to say about this. If only these immigrants from South and Latin America were picking cotton, the picture would be complete.

Gold erodes, erodes the soul...