The Lemur

thelike5 · Post by **thelike5** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:09 pm

Benshik wrote:
thelike5 wrote: The Lemurs are going to be the thing for about a year or so, then there will be way more cost effective products (which will be high quality as well) coming out
thelike5,
is this statement based on vague facts or rumors u heard or thats pure speculation?
jus wondering y you're saying that...

A little bit of both...

As history has proven, it takes a certain company like Jazz Mutant, or their distributers, Cycling 74, who truly are innovators. They produced the 'non de nom' of midi controllers, the Lemur. With that, other companies are smart. They see the interest behind creating a controller that is touch screen, velocity sensitive, etc. I'm sure before we know it, the Korg's, Novations, and sadly M-Audio's of the world will start producing something similar for less money. There will be other companies that are not as well known or brand new that will produce a controller of the similar innovative kind for less money...

But it's not only a money thing. The Lemur dosen't do what I need or want it to do. It should offer a dedicated usb 2.0 port, or (and?) firewire. I still don't undertand this shift to abandon firewire but that's irrevelant; firewire is pretty much over with as sad as that makes me. (But that's another post altogether...)

It's great that the Lemur uses OSC but how many of us need that? I think it's more of a boutique product suited for use by folks who want to be known as innovators and market touch screen capabilites for audio. I feel the same way about the Monome, www.monome.org , which I actually placed an order for but cancelled it simply because I feel the software to get this device to work the way I want it to isn't ready. The Monome costs $500 which is a fraction of the price of a Lemur and people feel the $500 for a monome is way too much anyways.

All this considered a Korg padkontrol seems the best device currently for what I want to do. I use Live pretty much as a straight "live" sequencer and as a simple recording program to craft out ambient, evolving tracks in a house music style. I'm a big fan of Kompakt records and to create music I am a fan of, I simply don't need a controller like the Lemur. I am more fascinated with it as an innovative product then an instrument to help better my productions. Honest truth.

As far as touch screens, etc and almost totally unrelated to this post, I have had a blast triggering sounds of off Elektroplankton for the Nintendo DS. I have the DS routed through my soundcard and can record it into live using plug in effects and produce some killer sounding evolving melodies. Being able to trigger these sounds using a touch interface is incrediably cool and I'm all for the technology behind it, I just know that the cost shouldn't be as high as it is and if a manufacturer can create a basic touch interface along with downloadable templates (downloadable directly to the units screen) of programs (Ableton Live, etc.) in a simple white package for about half of what a Lemur goes for I'm all over it. I know that is asking for a lot right now but I have a feeling it's not as far off as we may think...

For now, a Korg padkontrol woks just fine

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quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:25 pm

thelike5 wrote:I still don't undertand this shift to abandon firewire but that's irrevelant; firewire is pretty much over with as sad as that makes me. (But that's another post altogether...)

what did I miss?!? There are more and more firewire interfaces as each month goes by--it seems the most popular type of interface availible, as many can use their fw audio interface on both desktop and laptop. Also, virtually all serious Ableton users on laptops are running external fw harddrives, as are many on desktop computers as well. To top off all that, fw 800 is finally seeing the light of day with harddrives and interfaces like RME's that are taking advantage of this incredible speed. What have I missed--usb isn't competing with these products, pcmcia and pci are specific to laptops and desktops, and there seems to be fewer audio interface coming out in these areas. Sure, most midi controllers are usb 2.0, but that's fine by me, they work, and most all computers have more usb ports than fw, so a midi controller using fw is a waste of a port in my book. Is there some huge new crossplatform connection on the horizon I haven't heard of? Nothing seems to indicate the fw is going anywhere.

stealth1 · Post by **stealth1** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:33 pm

Hey allison,

I'm confided in the knowledge that this forum is honest. Not sure why peeps think that the Lemur isn't suited to Trance tho... Its irrelevant.

Given the release of such products, like the Lemur and the 3D, I think that manufacturers are gonna be hot on their tail, so given that I cannot be definite, I can only, and with reasonable sense, speculate that things can only improve, they have got to!

.

Despite Ableton being ahead of its time for this shiznik, we kinda seem to be in the dark ages of development when it comes to controllers. But at least we are safe in the knowledge that we are all in the same boat, and that we can all sail, eventually, together as one in the same boat in the near future

hambone1 · Post by **hambone1** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:48 pm

You can wait around forever and never do anything. Controllers, like everything else, will continue to evolve, and become cheaper and better.

Grab a controller or two now. You can't go wrong with a BCR2000, or one of the Faderfox units. They're inexpensive, and with some creative programming and a little work, you can do just about anything you want to do.

stealth1 · Post by **stealth1** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:54 pm

Yeah, your right man, but I guess we all drool overwhat COULD be...

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:59 pm

stealth1 wrote:Yeah, your right man, but I guess we all drool overwhat COULD be...

I guess this is what I'm still missing/not understanding--I know the lemur can do some pretty interesting things like the "bouncing ball" comment earlier, or complex x-y assignments of multiple parameters, but at a certain point, it can only really control what can be mapped to the software/sampler/whatever. At a certain point, the software dictates what can be controlled and how it can be controlled. Since I've been using Live with controllers for four years, I actually think the flock of controllers availible today are great, and they suit my needs of controlling parameters in Live just fine. I guess maybe I'm missing out, but I find today's controllers more than adequate at controlling the software and effects, and I guess I'd rather play parts on instruments than have bouncing balls on the lemur create my parts for me.

thelike5 · Post by **thelike5** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:06 pm

quandry wrote:
thelike5 wrote:I still don't undertand this shift to abandon firewire but that's irrevelant; firewire is pretty much over with as sad as that makes me. (But that's another post altogether...)
what did I miss?!? There are more and more firewire interfaces as each month goes by--it seems the most popular type of interface availible, as many can use their fw audio interface on both desktop and laptop. Also, virtually all serious Ableton users on laptops are running external fw harddrives, as are many on desktop computers as well. To top off all that, fw 800 is finally seeing the light of day with harddrives and interfaces like RME's that are taking advantage of this incredible speed. What have I missed--usb isn't competing with these products, pcmcia and pci are specific to laptops and desktops, and there seems to be fewer audio interface coming out in these areas. Sure, most midi controllers are usb 2.0, but that's fine by me, they work, and most all computers have more usb ports than fw, so a midi controller using fw is a waste of a port in my book. Is there some huge new crossplatform connection on the horizon I haven't heard of? Nothing seems to indicate the fw is going anywhere.

I've been using mac's for some time now and Apple pretty much were instrumental in the creation of firewire so I have to look at it from several different views, not just an audio standpoint...

It's always been my favorite connection. USB 1.0 has pretty muh seen it's day and I hate using it for all of the reasons you can imagine. It's slow. I own a 933 mhz Powermac and reley on my firewire ports. The new Ipods only support usb 2.0, I'm in the market for a CCCD camcorder which I haven't had any luck in locating one with firewire, just usb 2.0 which right there sugggests that camera manufactures are starting to abandon firewire in favor of usb. Firewire was first seen on the backs of higher end digital minidv camcorders well before it was adapted for audio recording use. If the big camcorder manufactures and Apple are starting to do away with firewire, then there will be shift for audio manufacturers to do the same.

It's a fact that audio companies got into the game late with firewire. it wasn't until a few years (3 or 4) that MOTU released the first soundcards with firewire. It took companies like RME years later and even M-audio years later. Apple is known for inventing all sorts of ports (remember the ADC, Apple display connector?) and then abandoning them in favor of what is more commonly used. In the case of audio, USB. In the case of video VGA connectors. Apple started out by asking people to "switch" now they are pretty much a PC and have "switched" themselves with an occasional 'jab' joke at you PC users.

Hey, like I said, I love firewire and would hate to see it go but just because it's prevelent with mass market companies like m-audio, alesis, presonus, etc. dosen't meen that it is here to stay much longer. I think video manufacturers still dictates what connections are going to be put on the back of a CPU more then audio ones do. I mean, Sony and Cannon sell a lot more cameras then RME and MOTU sell soundcards...

Here is a link that points this out a little bit.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/ind ... 12508.html

Notice the first response from the know-it-all about Ipods supporting firewire. Well, nope, not anymore... happened pretty quick, huh? Also of humor how this poster was so sure about this even though they "don't include the cable anymore"... if that isn't writting on the wall then I don't know, go buy a $1500 firewire only soundcard and find out if you will have a modern computer to plug it into in 3 years.

stealth1 · Post by **stealth1** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:13 pm

You've got a good point there. Never thought about it like that.

USB 2 is all over the place, all mac laptops have always had at least 2 usb ports, but only 1 firewire.

mmmm, intersting, at least.

gpvillamil · Post by **gpvillamil** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:01 pm

Allison Redhead wrote:I am slowly being swayed away from pulling the lemur trigger. Can someone point me to the controllers on the horizon? What can we expect? What's worth waiting for?

(Also, I want to thank EVERYONE for being so open and posting- this forum is amazing!)

-Allison

Really depends on your style of performing, I guess.

To get the most out of the Lemur, your style of performing will have to change. If you do, the possibilities are amazing. If you don't, and use the Lemur as a replacement for another controller, then you probably won't be happy (or $2000 worth happy...)

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:15 pm

Well, the lemur looks very cool and I am not knocking it, but if I were in the market to drop that kind of money for djing purposes I would probably grab an Xone:3D and either an SSL system or Ms. Pinky.

People (Dj's) are doing some cool stuff with Ableton, an Xone:3D, Serato and Ableton.

Add Max/Msp to the mix and that would be enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life I think.

thelike5 · Post by **thelike5** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:24 pm

smutek wrote:Well, the lemur looks very cool and I am not knocking it, but if I were in the market to drop that kind of money for djing purposes I would probably grab an Xone:3D and either an SSL system or Ms. Pinky.

People (Dj's) are doing some cool stuff with Ableton, an Xone:3D, Serato and Ableton.

Add Max/Msp to the mix and that would be enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life I think.

Yeah, I'd take an Xone:3d and some nice compressor/plu in bundle (TC Powercore) along with the virus plug in and pretty much call it a day.

Oh yeah, I'd update Live from my current version of 2 to 5.2! I don't know what I'm waiting for still...

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:32 am

USB 2 is all over the place, all mac laptops have always had at least 2 usb ports, but only 1 firewire.

Firewire daisy chains without a hub, just so you know.. you're not limited to just that single port, depending on whether or not your firewire hardware comes with more than one port, which is usually the case.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:58 am

thelike5 wrote:I've been using mac's for some time now and Apple pretty much were instrumental in the creation of firewire so I have to look at it from several different views, not just an audio standpoint...

I hear where you are coming from, and glad we all agree it is a good connection. I too have noticed that newer ipods and camcorders have nixed firewire connections, and that it is all but impossible to buy a firewire drive in a typical best buy, circuit city, etc. store these days. And certainly every computer made has more usb 2.0 ports, and the advent of 2.0 put a hurt on firewire in some reguards. That said, I'd say more pcs these days have at least one fw port than at any time in the past, and firewire 800 is more and more prevalent (and offers obvious advantages over usb). I guess time will tell, but it seems there are more audio firewire devices than ever, and it offers some advantages over usb 2.0 and there doesn't seem to be some new connection on the horizon. We'll see what happens over the coming years, but I'd venture to guess it will be around at least for a few years to come.

Jackal and Hyde · Post by **Jackal and Hyde** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:04 am

stealth1 wrote:Hey allison,

I'm confided in the knowledge that this forum is honest. Not sure why peeps think that the Lemur isn't suited to Trance tho...

Well, for one thing, its because "Trance" is possibly the most simple, predictable music to beat match/mix on Earth next to house. The whole idea of *Lemur needed for Trance* to kick ass in front of a crowd is absurd to tell you the truth. (Especially using Ableton to mix) It's 'vanity' period on a trance level. If you've got Craze on 5 tables or Ableton or Final Scratch working D&B with Breaks, Hip Hop and Underground Chicago mixed with movie samples and back spinning Funk, yea... But 4x4 Trance needs "Lemur", Give me a break. It's so overkill its beyond ridiculous. The last show I did with BT (Doing a tribute Trance set) while using Live, he had a Laptop, a pile of crap Oxygen and a mouse. . . . . . . . . . . And he brought the fckn house down no prob. 1,000 kids with 2,000 hands in the air for an hour an a half. I see it as a total waste of money, but actually believing it would help a person playing trance sound/look good = 10 x's more stupid. Take the $2,200 and go to Vegas and put it on RED/ Or buy gear that will actually help you make better Trance Music... < SSL's 'Duende' comes to mind.

"Sounding" more like Sasha will open more doors for you than "looking" like Sasha.

stealth1 · Post by **stealth1** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:10 am

see what you mean