You don't need Pro Tools Dude!
It's not the tool, it's the engineer. I've used both, and like many others here have said, pro tools has some features that live doesn't. I've tracked a couple of sessions with Live, as you can't run pro tools on a macbook pro, and you can do a great job in Live. Personally, my favorite for tracking is Digital Performer, but Live is so much more creatively friendly, that is the only tool I have loaded in my macbook pro (dp is not universal yet). With the exception of garageband, which I've also had great success recording with, it is surprisingly powerful for a free toy. Hell, even audacity is sufficient to track with. You just have to know what you are doing.
studio 615 wrote:
to paint a picture of what i initially mean (sorry sometimes i have difficulties to hit the nail on the head, english isn't my mother tongue)
if you are a michael schumacher you can drive equally well in a golf or ferrari, but assumed you can already drive very well, which one will allow you to be faster?
all that said i don't bitch about live it's my fave tool for certain uses (and in those departments it's the best i have ever used) for others i consider it weak up to being useless.
shurely, no doubt about it, it's the most important criteria which can't be replaced by anything!! clear that is!You just have to know what you are doing.
to paint a picture of what i initially mean (sorry sometimes i have difficulties to hit the nail on the head, english isn't my mother tongue)
if you are a michael schumacher you can drive equally well in a golf or ferrari, but assumed you can already drive very well, which one will allow you to be faster?
all that said i don't bitch about live it's my fave tool for certain uses (and in those departments it's the best i have ever used) for others i consider it weak up to being useless.
not really a valid comparison, beacuse with PC vs Mac - both platforms generally run the same applications, such as Live, so both platforms could be considered functionally equivalent. Personal preference or experience is another matter.
But in this instance - we are talking about lack of function.
you tell me how to display 5 lanes of automation in arrangement in Live, or how to solo a group track in Live.
it's simply not possible. Those are big useful functions and they aren't in Live.
But in this instance - we are talking about lack of function.
you tell me how to display 5 lanes of automation in arrangement in Live, or how to solo a group track in Live.
it's simply not possible. Those are big useful functions and they aren't in Live.
wow, stinky, thanks a lot for taking the time to post all of that info--very eye opening. Seriously, thanks, a lot of what you are saying makes sense, I can see why many of those features would be useful for tracking a full band, you make a good sales pitch! There's a few of the things you mention (though I probably don't understand them in full having not used them firsthand) that I have been able to do with Live or my RME...
"Metering"
I keep hearing people say Live needs better metering, and I have noticed discrepancies btwn Live and my RME totalmix software. So I just rely on the totalmix meters while tracking and they have served my well. I do dig that Live draws all of the audio waveforms as you record--on the first takes of a session I watch the arrangerview waveforms as they are written to make sure none of the 16 tracks are peaking out.
"Regions, Markers, Group"
Live 5 does have markers, but probably not as in-depth as I imagine PT does. Is the region thing like the loop region in Live's arrangerview?
"Multiple Takes (holy shit, recording a band without being able to switch to different takes on the fly.. uh, no brainer)"
For me, I just set up key mappings to the monitor button of tracks that are takes of the same instrument, allowing me to easily flip between them on the fly. I do have to make sure all the effects and settings are the same on the tracks though. Does PT allow you to somehow have multiple takes "inside" one track so that you don't have to set up multiple tracks with identical effects and stuff--that would be cool. I do like Live's loop region in the arrangerview and being able to record a solo over the same section over and over in real time with no pauses, then unroll the clip and pick and choose--very fun.
"Zero Latency Monitoring"
RME to the rescue again here. When we track we do bass and guitars direct, no amps, so everyone has headphones on. With the RME's totalmix software and a multi-headphone amp, I can give each band member the exact mix they want of every instrument and mic, and even save these mixer setups for future use. This is obviously absolutely crucial for tracking a whole band--no latency!
"Remove silence (huge plus, easy as hell and really intuitive)"
Wow, that would be awesome for vocal tracks. It would be great to have this in Live.
"Writing Automation and Resolution 10x better"
For reals? When I adjust a breakpoint in Live with the mouse and the "ctrl" key held down, I can adjust down to the 0.0x of a dB (one hundredth). Can PT really adjust down to the 0.000x of a dB? I fully agree that various curves for automation, crossfades, and multiple automation splines showing at once are really needed in Live. I think the real time writing of automation seems okay, and maybe could be better, but I'd be as quick to blame my uc33e as Live.
Anyhow, thanks again for a very in-depth and level-headed explanation of the benefits of PT for tracking a full band, there's definitely some features you mentioned I'd hope to see in Live at some point. Fortunately, for my particular situation and bands, I don't feel like I totally missed out and wasted tons of time, but I'm sure if the projects were more complex, or if I actually used PT much and got into all of the features, I'd probably be kicking myself.
Ryan
"Metering"
I keep hearing people say Live needs better metering, and I have noticed discrepancies btwn Live and my RME totalmix software. So I just rely on the totalmix meters while tracking and they have served my well. I do dig that Live draws all of the audio waveforms as you record--on the first takes of a session I watch the arrangerview waveforms as they are written to make sure none of the 16 tracks are peaking out.
"Regions, Markers, Group"
Live 5 does have markers, but probably not as in-depth as I imagine PT does. Is the region thing like the loop region in Live's arrangerview?
"Multiple Takes (holy shit, recording a band without being able to switch to different takes on the fly.. uh, no brainer)"
For me, I just set up key mappings to the monitor button of tracks that are takes of the same instrument, allowing me to easily flip between them on the fly. I do have to make sure all the effects and settings are the same on the tracks though. Does PT allow you to somehow have multiple takes "inside" one track so that you don't have to set up multiple tracks with identical effects and stuff--that would be cool. I do like Live's loop region in the arrangerview and being able to record a solo over the same section over and over in real time with no pauses, then unroll the clip and pick and choose--very fun.
"Zero Latency Monitoring"
RME to the rescue again here. When we track we do bass and guitars direct, no amps, so everyone has headphones on. With the RME's totalmix software and a multi-headphone amp, I can give each band member the exact mix they want of every instrument and mic, and even save these mixer setups for future use. This is obviously absolutely crucial for tracking a whole band--no latency!
"Remove silence (huge plus, easy as hell and really intuitive)"
Wow, that would be awesome for vocal tracks. It would be great to have this in Live.
"Writing Automation and Resolution 10x better"
For reals? When I adjust a breakpoint in Live with the mouse and the "ctrl" key held down, I can adjust down to the 0.0x of a dB (one hundredth). Can PT really adjust down to the 0.000x of a dB? I fully agree that various curves for automation, crossfades, and multiple automation splines showing at once are really needed in Live. I think the real time writing of automation seems okay, and maybe could be better, but I'd be as quick to blame my uc33e as Live.
Anyhow, thanks again for a very in-depth and level-headed explanation of the benefits of PT for tracking a full band, there's definitely some features you mentioned I'd hope to see in Live at some point. Fortunately, for my particular situation and bands, I don't feel like I totally missed out and wasted tons of time, but I'm sure if the projects were more complex, or if I actually used PT much and got into all of the features, I'd probably be kicking myself.
Ryan
Dell Studio XPS 8100 Windows 7 64-bit, 10 GB RAM. RME Multiface, Avalon U5 & M5, Distressor, Filter Factory, UC33e, BCR-2000, FCB1010, K-Station, Hr 824 & H120 sub, EZ Bus, V-Drums, DrumKat EZ, basses, guitars, pedals... http://www.ryan-hughes.net
To say that one sounds better than other is bull. What counts here is the hardware, A/D converters quality, and, of course, ears.
the only thing I miss comparing PT with other hosts is the AU and RTAS plugins. If Bombfactory and Universal Audio were made for VST, the history would be other.
And if UA releases a UAD-1 for notebooks, this protools plugins advantage woul fall like a rotten apple. with much less buck than on a TDM or HD pro tools system, you'll have the same pro plugins, and still use VSTs and stuff without a damn wrapper.
my 0,01
sub
the only thing I miss comparing PT with other hosts is the AU and RTAS plugins. If Bombfactory and Universal Audio were made for VST, the history would be other.
And if UA releases a UAD-1 for notebooks, this protools plugins advantage woul fall like a rotten apple. with much less buck than on a TDM or HD pro tools system, you'll have the same pro plugins, and still use VSTs and stuff without a damn wrapper.
my 0,01
sub
http://soundcloud.com/coelho
Dave Smith Prophet 08 SE, Genelecs, RME Multiface, Faderfoxes, Doepfer Drehbank, Padkontrol, DIY Footcontroller, Electro Harmonix Pedals.
Dave Smith Prophet 08 SE, Genelecs, RME Multiface, Faderfoxes, Doepfer Drehbank, Padkontrol, DIY Footcontroller, Electro Harmonix Pedals.
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djadonis206
- Posts: 6490
- Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm
- Location: Seattle, WA.
Blah blah blah - I know cats who only use pro-tools to write huge jams that come out on some pimping labels - I know some cats who use Reason to write jams that come out on some pimping labels and I know some cats who use Ableton and well, they blow up as well.
Dan works with everyone from Dave Aude (Pro-Tools) to Haitirus (Acid, Cubase) and it all sounds good
If you got the skills you should be able to go into any studio and do what you gotta do.
It's all how your brain works, up down, side to side, playlist, no playlist
I wish Ableton acted like Pro-Tools on several levels and vice versa but they don't - cry me a river and get on with writting jams
DJA
Dan works with everyone from Dave Aude (Pro-Tools) to Haitirus (Acid, Cubase) and it all sounds good
If you got the skills you should be able to go into any studio and do what you gotta do.
It's all how your brain works, up down, side to side, playlist, no playlist
I wish Ableton acted like Pro-Tools on several levels and vice versa but they don't - cry me a river and get on with writting jams
DJA
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detroitechno
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:03 pm
- Location: detroit
You sure can. But besides that, Live is a great program, ProTools is a great program. They have advantages, use them both. There is REWIRE for a reason! Use it. When you start using both these programs rewired, I think your at your peak of opportunity's!studio615 wrote:you can't run pro tools on a macbook pro
A bunch of gear, cords, and a computer...
Re: You don't need Pro Tools Dude!
Yeah, we used to get that attitude from the Mac elitists toomdb wrote:Im sick of these god damn pro tools snobs.. They all act like.. "if it ain't done in pro tools it couldn't possibly be professional sounding" ...
9.0.4 Suite-Samsung Chronos 7 laptop(17")-12GB RAM-Samsung 840 series SSD(250GB)-iPad2-Maschine-TouchAble-SaffirePro24-Saffire6USB-Komplete Audio 6-Axiom25-PCR300-Nocturn-LaunchPad-QuNeo-QuNexus
miTunes
miTunes
Ditto. All DAW's have their respective advantages...except DP. It's never cool to use DPCITYSTATE wrote:ever notice how live/logic/nuendo users are constantly attacking protools?
it seems like people get defensive over their own choice in software. if you like live or logic or nuendo then fine.
Lopark
Ableton Live 6 + Operator
MacBook Pro (Core Duo)
M-Audio Firewire 410
Evolution UC-33
Midiman Oxygen 8
M-Audio BX8a monitors
Ableton Live 6 + Operator
MacBook Pro (Core Duo)
M-Audio Firewire 410
Evolution UC-33
Midiman Oxygen 8
M-Audio BX8a monitors
I embrace protools (fairly knowledgable) AND logicpro (yeah, right........the deepest piece of software EVER.......guess maybe in 5 years I might know that program!).....and LIVE rocks! It's freakin' great.......CITYSTATE wrote:ever notice how live/logic/nuendo users are constantly attacking protools?
it seems like people get defensive over their own choice in software.
Nuendo........? 2000usd? I really don't get that one...........video seems to be the biggy there????
Anyways......I don't dis' protools........I am thankful for le and mpowered.
Now, if they could just make decent/compatible audio interfaces..........
Ok, quandry, thanks for the courtesy. I'll respond to some of your quesions now that i have time:
First, i want to say that i'm not a PT fanboy. I love Cubase, Logic, Sonar, PT, and Live, and have had exposure to them all. They all have good points, and weaknesses, but for the most part, i can move through them without problems. PT for me, is the best, because besides DP/Motu, there isn't another hardware/software solution out there, and i just got sick of working with hardware compatibility issues (because i'm constantly changing environments). Cubase rocks, but doesn't have a hardware solution. I love DP and Logic, but i'm an avid PC user, because of my background in computer networking/web consulting, linux, specifically, and open systems in general. Yes, i know what you're thinking, open systems -> PT. PT has other advantages, like being an industry wide standard. And, i wanted that because i find it a huge convenience. I also do alot of video work, and PT is huge there, especially since it's owned by Avid. Also, i'm free to use any host i wish.
Having said that, my next a/d will be RME, specifically because of the sound quality and latency, but also because it's one of the only solutions out there that also work on linux. I plan on keeping my digi002 though, because it fucking rocks. I really don't care what anybody says. I'm going to knock on wood here, but i've had it since it came out... i paid a pretty penny, and even almost got my money jacked by a distributer, but in the end, it's been solid for me. Never failed me once, in all types of situations. I've heard that they breakdown often, but i think it's just from retards beating on their gear.
So, i digress, you asked some specific questions, so i'm going to give you some specific answers.
"Metering"
I don't think you actually asked a question, but i've beaten that topic to death today, so i'll move along. I would like to say something about metering in RME that rocks, and Digicheck has support for the K-system metering.
"Regions, Markers, Group"
------" Is the region thing like the loop region in Live's arrangerview? "-----
That can be an aspect of it, but you're really just refering to punch-in/out points. No, regions are way more advanced than the lame markers that Live has. Regions are really just a different way of grouping subsections together, but things like Info Stamps really make it a pleasure to know what's in the region. Markers really allow you to do alot with editing, but you can also put info in them, as well, and you can jump between them with keyboard shortcuts. Most major daw's have similar functions. Yadda yadda.. groups are kickass, especially with a shitload of tracks. As someone stated before, it's nice to disable groups (kinda like freezing), or mute groups. Or just do anything to groups in general. Grouping for me is huge, because it just helps organizing shit.
"Multiple Takes"
-------"Does PT allow you to somehow have multiple takes "inside" one track"-----
What you were describing as your working style is basicly a kludge? It works, but not great. Yes, multiple takes can be had inside a track. You can set a loop record, walk away and fix yourself a sandwich, and every single take will appear on the list on the right hand numbered.. you can then drag them back into your track, or into any other track. You can do that with midi or audio. (this is even better for midi, i think, because you can really perfect your performance)
"Zero Latency Monitoring"
Yep, you've got RME, you're not missing much here, but you're lucky. You made a wise decision, and spent alot of money, and not everybody has that luxury. So, Zero Latency Monitoring is a plus.
"Remove silence"
This is a killer feature.. one that would be really easy to implement in Live, and would save alot of time. The thing that I love about this function is it's got a "Threshold" which you can set in ms, around your audio data.
"Writing Automation and Resolution 10x better"
First of all, i'd like to say that the Ruler options in PT blow anything in live's away. Live looks like a toy in this department:
- Bars:Beats
- Minutes:Seconds
- Time Code
- Feet+Frames
- Samples
Also, i think i read that live's midi resolution was 480ppq, but i could be wrong... it still hasn't been confirmed, unless someone else has a reference? PT's is 960ppq, but that's standard. However, this may be why some people have midi sync issues, especially with MPC (depends what version of the hardware).. i can't confirm this, this is just my guess.
Anyways, this is directly from the PT Reference Guide:
"Most MIDI control surfaces have 7-bit resolution, or 128 steps. Pro Tools interpolates this input to 24-bit resolution on playback, resulting in extremely accurate and smooth fader automation."
PT can work sample-based or tick-based.
-----
Moving along, PT has some stuff i didn't mention in my previous post, like built in dithering and REAL sidechaining, not no wanna-be shit like Compressor II. Also, you can do almost anything with keyboard shortcuts. Alot of people complain that you can't assign keyboard shortcuts like in cubase, and other daws, but i think it's a plus, because it standardizes everything, and when you move from one studio's daw to another, you don't have to try to figure out certain key mappings, like you would it you had that function.
What's also cool about PT also is you can adjust stereo mono track's pan seperately, like you can in Cubase. PT tracks everything also multi-mono tracks. Sonar doesn't have this option, and everything's stereo'd. I think the fact the Live doesn't have mono tracks sux ass.
Speaking of panning.. a topic on Panning Laws came up, is PT's panning laws. They're 2.5 centered by default. You can adjust panning laws in Cubase, Sonar, and Logic, but not PT's, which kinda sux, but it's also a standard, so it's not that bad. It's kinda like the keyboard shortcuts, better that you don't have that ability sometimes, but it can suck in certain situations.
Anways, i'm freakin tired ass shit. Have fun. Movin on..
First, i want to say that i'm not a PT fanboy. I love Cubase, Logic, Sonar, PT, and Live, and have had exposure to them all. They all have good points, and weaknesses, but for the most part, i can move through them without problems. PT for me, is the best, because besides DP/Motu, there isn't another hardware/software solution out there, and i just got sick of working with hardware compatibility issues (because i'm constantly changing environments). Cubase rocks, but doesn't have a hardware solution. I love DP and Logic, but i'm an avid PC user, because of my background in computer networking/web consulting, linux, specifically, and open systems in general. Yes, i know what you're thinking, open systems -> PT. PT has other advantages, like being an industry wide standard. And, i wanted that because i find it a huge convenience. I also do alot of video work, and PT is huge there, especially since it's owned by Avid. Also, i'm free to use any host i wish.
Having said that, my next a/d will be RME, specifically because of the sound quality and latency, but also because it's one of the only solutions out there that also work on linux. I plan on keeping my digi002 though, because it fucking rocks. I really don't care what anybody says. I'm going to knock on wood here, but i've had it since it came out... i paid a pretty penny, and even almost got my money jacked by a distributer, but in the end, it's been solid for me. Never failed me once, in all types of situations. I've heard that they breakdown often, but i think it's just from retards beating on their gear.
So, i digress, you asked some specific questions, so i'm going to give you some specific answers.
"Metering"
I don't think you actually asked a question, but i've beaten that topic to death today, so i'll move along. I would like to say something about metering in RME that rocks, and Digicheck has support for the K-system metering.
"Regions, Markers, Group"
------" Is the region thing like the loop region in Live's arrangerview? "-----
That can be an aspect of it, but you're really just refering to punch-in/out points. No, regions are way more advanced than the lame markers that Live has. Regions are really just a different way of grouping subsections together, but things like Info Stamps really make it a pleasure to know what's in the region. Markers really allow you to do alot with editing, but you can also put info in them, as well, and you can jump between them with keyboard shortcuts. Most major daw's have similar functions. Yadda yadda.. groups are kickass, especially with a shitload of tracks. As someone stated before, it's nice to disable groups (kinda like freezing), or mute groups. Or just do anything to groups in general. Grouping for me is huge, because it just helps organizing shit.
"Multiple Takes"
-------"Does PT allow you to somehow have multiple takes "inside" one track"-----
What you were describing as your working style is basicly a kludge? It works, but not great. Yes, multiple takes can be had inside a track. You can set a loop record, walk away and fix yourself a sandwich, and every single take will appear on the list on the right hand numbered.. you can then drag them back into your track, or into any other track. You can do that with midi or audio. (this is even better for midi, i think, because you can really perfect your performance)
"Zero Latency Monitoring"
Yep, you've got RME, you're not missing much here, but you're lucky. You made a wise decision, and spent alot of money, and not everybody has that luxury. So, Zero Latency Monitoring is a plus.
"Remove silence"
This is a killer feature.. one that would be really easy to implement in Live, and would save alot of time. The thing that I love about this function is it's got a "Threshold" which you can set in ms, around your audio data.
"Writing Automation and Resolution 10x better"
First of all, i'd like to say that the Ruler options in PT blow anything in live's away. Live looks like a toy in this department:
- Bars:Beats
- Minutes:Seconds
- Time Code
- Feet+Frames
- Samples
Also, i think i read that live's midi resolution was 480ppq, but i could be wrong... it still hasn't been confirmed, unless someone else has a reference? PT's is 960ppq, but that's standard. However, this may be why some people have midi sync issues, especially with MPC (depends what version of the hardware).. i can't confirm this, this is just my guess.
Anyways, this is directly from the PT Reference Guide:
"Most MIDI control surfaces have 7-bit resolution, or 128 steps. Pro Tools interpolates this input to 24-bit resolution on playback, resulting in extremely accurate and smooth fader automation."
PT can work sample-based or tick-based.
-----
Moving along, PT has some stuff i didn't mention in my previous post, like built in dithering and REAL sidechaining, not no wanna-be shit like Compressor II. Also, you can do almost anything with keyboard shortcuts. Alot of people complain that you can't assign keyboard shortcuts like in cubase, and other daws, but i think it's a plus, because it standardizes everything, and when you move from one studio's daw to another, you don't have to try to figure out certain key mappings, like you would it you had that function.
What's also cool about PT also is you can adjust stereo mono track's pan seperately, like you can in Cubase. PT tracks everything also multi-mono tracks. Sonar doesn't have this option, and everything's stereo'd. I think the fact the Live doesn't have mono tracks sux ass.
Speaking of panning.. a topic on Panning Laws came up, is PT's panning laws. They're 2.5 centered by default. You can adjust panning laws in Cubase, Sonar, and Logic, but not PT's, which kinda sux, but it's also a standard, so it's not that bad. It's kinda like the keyboard shortcuts, better that you don't have that ability sometimes, but it can suck in certain situations.
Anways, i'm freakin tired ass shit. Have fun. Movin on..
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Pitch Black
- Posts: 6722
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:18 am
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
