OT: electroacoustic composition: more concept than content?

[Benshik]

I'm divided. But the arguments in my previous post was just me playing the devils advocate, repeating arguments against live performances i've heard from other people.

Personally, I do like to perform live. And I like to see some live performances too. But is that just because it is fun to see something moving on the stage, a puppet show? Is it an excuse for doing worse music?

I don't have the answers, but I've been thinking about it a bit.

live music worse than "studio" music? disagree...

i think you mock the role of the "event" around the music a bit too much, with your very blase, very cynical "puppet show" comparison. music is also about getting together, seeing other people. nevermind the little imperfections...

"why the hell are people going to cinema when they could watch a movie at home?" one could tell. so boring...

[Michael-SW]

Hey, don't slag me! I like having a beer (or two or three..), listening to music and hanging out as much as the next guy.

But these are issues that are discussed in the EAM community. I wanted to start a debate and hear what people had to say.

[Machinate]

Hey, I like live performance as much as the next person. Both doing them and listening to/seeing them.

But I've heard the arguments above from various people. The best defence I could come up with was that a live performance offers the possibility of interaction between the audience and the performers, the performance can evolve in response to the audience's reactions.

Except for that, most arguments come down to the "theatre of performance" argument, ie. Milli Vanilli and a CD player would probably do a better job.

I'm confused.

Do you think EAM can be performed effectively in a live situation or not?

I know a bunch of people who would never really "play" their works live, work with the structure, timbres and so on. If they were to play it they would litteraly be hitting play, and then stand back. They feel they've invested too much thought and artistic integrity into the placement of each note, each little filter tweak, how the stereo panorama is "just so". And you can of course forget about playing microtonal stuff with 512th note sequences live The usual result is that these works are played back while a modern dance ensemble go nuts at the same time.

[Benshik]

Hey, don't slag me! I like having a beer (or two or three..), listening to music and hanging out as much as the next guy.

But these are issues that are discussed in the EAM community. I wanted to start a debate and hear what people had to say.

hey sorry if you thought i was slagging you. that wasnt my intention.

i agree that a lot of electronic music "live performances" are rather useless, that a lot of knobs are twisted out of the pressure of "doing something", but im not sure that hitting play and sitting back is the best solution. dunno, i get the feeling that we havent found the right formula yet...

The ideas you raise from the EAM community are thought provoking and interesting, esp for me because i am still struggling to form an opinion on the subject.

[mikemc]

Hey, I like live performance as much as the next person. Both doing them and listening to/seeing them.

But I've heard the arguments above from various people. The best defence I could come up with was that a live performance offers the possibility of interaction between the audience and the performers, the performance can evolve in response to the audience's reactions.

Except for that, most arguments come down to the "theatre of performance" argument, ie. Milli Vanilli and a CD player would probably do a better job.

I'm confused.

Do you think EAM can be performed effectively in a live situation or not?

I know a bunch of people who would never really "play" their works live, work with the structure, timbres and so on. If they were to play it they would litteraly be hitting play, and then stand back. They feel they've invested too much thought and artistic integrity into the placement of each note, each little filter tweak, how the stereo panorama is "just so". And you can of course forget about playing microtonal stuff with 512th note sequences live The usual result is that these works are played back while a modern dance ensemble go nuts at the same time.

Right, writhing leotarded persons aside these compositions are 'realized' and taped often because they could only happen once-- the recording is a means for 'audio display'.

But isn't this part of the 'big deal' with Live-- compositions can be realized on the fly, jamming around in real time, or if you are of the EAM type mindset, they can be painstakingly realized and played back with much higher fidelity?

[dj superflat]

i think this is the tension inherent in much electronic music. why is it more impressive to watch a dj slap pads (that quantize things so he can't really mess up) rather than a canned drum loop? why is it more impressive if i create the bass/guitar/synth loops live rather than use canned loops? there's little risk the loops will be wrong, you can always fix things, and you generally have sorted out beforehand what you want to do (at least generally). but people respond much better if they see you make the loops, even though that means songs have disjointed structures as you scurry about to different instruments (it always kind of reminds me of preschool, with the kids getting a demonstration of how songs can be built up from simple components).

probably goes back to community. people want to feel that there's a performer responding the audience, even if it's only tweaking the resonance on the filter or whatever.

[Michael-SW]

probably goes back to community. people want to feel that there's a performer responding the audience, even if it's only tweaking the resonance on the filter or whatever.

I definitely agree with you. I love to see a good performer. But with electronic music the audience has most of the time literally no way of knowing if you are actually performing or just going through the motions to a prerecorded track. Cause and effect are often very loosely coupled when you have just a laptop and a midi controller.

[mercyplease]

Been pondering this one for a few weeks and am keen to canvas thoughtful opinion on the matter.

For those unfamiliar with the genre, electroacoustic music is the broad heading given to modern abstract, electronic music composition. It is now largely the province of academia, and generally refers to sound "art" made using software such as Max/Msp & PD mixed with field recordings or other found sources.

The tradition grew out of the work of avant-garde artists like Pierre Schaeffer who created musique concrete (recorded sounds from the environment & the studio used to create new music), and Edgard Varese, John Cage, Karlheinz Stockhausen ,Pierre Boulez, etc. etc.

But where are we at now with it all? And why does so much of it sound like random clicks and beeps with uneasy silences thrown in? And why, for an "avant-garde" form, does much of it still sound like the stuff the aforementioned guys were doing 60 years ago?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm fascinated by it..I think it's a brave and exciting plunge into unexpected musical worlds, and can make you rethink & re-examine your old reference points.

When it works.

But, just as often, it seems like the emperor's new clothes. And some of it, without the required accompanying "concept" or intellectual rationalisation, makes little impact or sense in and of itself. For a piece to really "work", to me, it must first stand up on it's own as an aural experience - i.e), apart from the creator's concept of what it is "about".

I find myself listening with amazement to Matmos, FourTet, Herbert etc. and wonder if they, and not the University crowd, are taking this music forward?
By still using similar techniques, but embracing rhythm and melody again instead of just worshipping tones, their work seems fresher and newer in many ways.

I know they probably would not see themselves as working in the same tradition, being commercial artists rather than research-funded phd students, but I think they're being just as cutting edge and adventurous.

So - what do you reckon?

Is it all bollocks that no-one really listens to ( and the few that do can only appreciate it when they've been told why it's good) - or is it the Final Frontier?





We can always talk about girls if you want, though.


Or drugs.

yes the PRS in the UK are desperate to hadn over cash to electronic artists. If you merely use electronic equipment and make appealing music you wont get a cent. If you make music that appeals to academia and incorporate video they will gladly hand over cash. I dont have a problem with supporting any music but I do have a problem with popular styles being disregarded.
So yes its academia over content

[Machinate]

these compositions are 'realized' and taped often because they could only happen once-- the recording is a means for 'audio display'.

Ah yes, but you see; I don't have a problem with the recording methods, and the artistic approach that renders a real, live performance of a piece impossible.

I do, however, object to these works being substitutes for a live performance. If I go to an electronically-oriented night to hear live music I don't want playback wankery. I have that at home

It's okay to be anal about one's work and to *not touch it at all after completion unless it is to push play* but FTLOG don't tout yourself as a live performer

[the_viirus]

these compositions are 'realized' and taped often because they could only happen once-- the recording is a means for 'audio display'.

Ah yes, but you see; I don't have a problem with the recording methods, and the artistic approach that renders a real, live performance of a piece impossible.

I do, however, object to these works being substitutes for a live performance. If I go to an electronically-oriented night to hear live music I don't want playback wankery. I have that at home

It's okay to be anal about one's work and to *not touch it at all after completion unless it is to push play* but FTLOG don't tout yourself as a live performer

PS: the electroacoustic term for "pressing play" is called "diffusion". although not much is happening, typically the person manning the board is diffusing the sound through an array of speakers...

typically 8.1...although it can get MUCH MORE ELABORATE.
such as the Birmingham Electro Acoustic Sound Theatre...or BEAST.

http://www.ea-studios.bham.ac.uk/

[b0unce]

regarding esoteric, avante garde electro-acoustic works I recommend nurse with wound ....they've been at it for what, 20/30 years ?


although you shouldnt bother if you dont appreciate the genre to begin with

[Machinate]

PS: the electroacoustic term for "pressing play" is called "diffusion". although not much is happening, typically the person manning the board is diffusing the sound through an array of speakers...

Ah yes. That's l33t sp43k for "djing", innit?

typically 8.1...although it can get MUCH MORE ELABORATE.
such as the Birmingham Electro Acoustic Sound Theatre...or BEAST.

http://www.ea-studios.bham.ac.uk/

mmmmmm. Beast. God I love grant-money!

[funknotik]

One of the most interesting posts i've seen in a while. I recently did a project about what constitutes music. The topic was simply What is music. Apart from the classical conscepts of what music is tone, variation, melody, etc.....The project ended with the conclusion that there is no clear definition for what music is. One performer ( I forget his name) actually sat infront of a piano and pretended to play it for like 30 minutes. He did this in an attempt to question what music was and that it did not necessarily have to include sound. Off course most of us would find this stupid, but the truth is there is no exact definition for what music is...so a couple bleeps and blips after pressing a play button might be the best music to one person and crap to another.

[Hyperion]

There will come a time when dj's and live performers are dismissed. Then the right sound and music will be at forehand made to fit the time and place of a congregation of people. But then a more intensely colorful ambience has to be created to get the people involved in the same dreamlike adventure, a far more brilliant integration of sound and space.

By comparison are the socalled dance events, etc of today barbaric and banal phenomena. A muddle of conflicting and egotistical energies, where the mob rules.

But one day...

[Machinate]

There will come a time when dj's and live performers are dismissed. Then the right sound and music will be at forehand made to fit the time and place of a congregation of people.

... made in advance in a studio somewhere? Somehow that doesn't quite add up, to me.

The immediacy of real, live music is exactly what makes it fit the time and place. Not foresight.