Bezier Curves

bleepsnbreaks · Post by **bleepsnbreaks** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:42 pm

I can see wher eyou are comming from, I know that there are only a certain amount of resources that can be consumed to get 7 out the door, but out of all the features that have been listed, I will only use one or two of them.
It seems to me that they have left out some REALLY REALLY big ones, we arent talking about "I wish that the faders were 5 pixels longer" type things.
Its understandable that there are so many people really p1ssed at ableton, the things that have been left out are things that everyone has been wanting and asking for for so long that they just couldn't imagine that they would be left out again.
I have literally been looking forward to the next version of Live for ages, believing that beziers would be in there this time, its a massive dissapointment.
The problem also is that Ableton are ever silent. They never tell you, hey, this feature isnt in right now, but we promise you we have people working on it now and it will be in the first update for 7, or something like that.
Another year is a really long time to wait for something which makes you angry every time you have to edit automation.
The no automation in clips thing, thats really big too, for playing live its so necessary..
I guess its a certain kind of person who has a certain kind of workflow that wants all these things so much because there seems to be a very divided group of users out there. 1/2 are really happy with Live 7 and the other 1/2 are very angry and considering jumping ship to Logic.

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:48 pm

BigBuddha wrote: Don't get me wrong, but every year a non-free ungrade, why is that? I would prefer to wait longer and only pay once for basic (!) DAW features.

yep, valid point..
that would take away some of the disappointment,
but still not all..

Live is used by so many different kind of users, all with their own respective needs..
that might be the key issue in this..

BigBuddha · Post by **BigBuddha** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:55 pm

Poster wrote:
BigBuddha wrote: Don't get me wrong, but every year a non-free ungrade, why is that? I would prefer to wait longer and only pay once for basic (!) DAW features.
yep, valid point..
that would take away some of the disappointment,
but still not all..

Live is used by so many different kind of users, all with their own respective needs..

You are absolutely right, but I don't want anything special – i only want basic main DAW features after buying Live 5 and upgrade to Live 6. I can't understand why e.g. video export seems to be much more important then the pretty much demanded: bezier curves, crossfades & groove-quantization. These needs aren't special imo.

bleepsnbreaks · Post by **bleepsnbreaks** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:03 pm

You are absolutely right, but I don't want anything special – i only want basic main DAW features after buying Live 5 and upgrade to Live 6. I can't understand why e.g. video export seems to be much more important then the pretty much demanded: bezier curves, crossfades & groove-quantization. These needs aren't special imo.

[/quote]

Totaly agree with you there man, I dont see that the things that we are after are really anything special, they are really pretty basic requirements of a modern DAW really, in my opinion.
The lack of bezier curves used to annoy the living sh1t out of me in Reason, and Propellerheads are WELL known as totally ignoring the wants of thier users. Does ablleton want people to start having the same opinion of thier outlook on users as Reason users do about Propellerheads?

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:32 pm

I think the main problem with implementing this will be backwards compatibility.
Just imagine developing a function that smoothly converts 10,000 points to accurate spline versions .. that don't have 10,000 points.

Well it would be a problem for me, I am shit at working with the basics like trig and radians, never mind vector math.

well, fortunately they are better at that stuff than me and I hope it does come in one day.

e-theory · Post by **e-theory** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:53 am

This is the one thing I miss from the old Logic 5.1 on PC - was great to have options for the automation curves - really helped out on a lot of occasions - I hate having to draw things with straight lines.

Another thing - why can't we have a snap to grid option for automation as well? There are a number of times where I want such a feature....

bleepsnbreaks · Post by **bleepsnbreaks** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:55 am

e-theory wrote: Another thing - why can't we have a snap to grid option for automation as well? There are a number of times where I want such a feature....

YEP!
Im so sick of having to zoom RIGHT in to get automation right on grid so that you dont get nastly pops etc..........

e-theory · Post by **e-theory** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:14 am

Oooh - a quick note on the backwards compatibility - it's not ideal - but it turns out that placing linear interpolation between the bezier handles is good enough in most cases to handle the general intention that the automation has - and would likely address the problem brought up in the above post. Such a crude approximation should be enough to handle backwards compatibility - but as far as I am aware Live is not backwards compatible anyway....

agentc · Post by **agentc** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:42 pm

What's the point with backward-compatibility? You don't have to convert the points
you've once set in an older song into bezier-curves if loaded into a new version which
actually supports curving the lines. Those two things can live in perfect co-existance.
If you don't want a curve, you can leave it linear. If you put a lot of points into your
older songs, they won't change at all, just because there are curves now.
Even if you will be able to curve in a never version, curving only affects the area
between the set points, and not the points themselves.

Anyway, would be nice to see bezier curves... so

+1.

Greetz,
agentC

mdk · Post by **mdk** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:50 pm

ive also said it before, so heres my

+2

as agentc says, no compatibility problems, just because they are called bezier curves doesnt mean it has to be curved, you can make straight lines

and if there were curves we could have data smoothing options which would make working with recorded automation actually worth doing. at the moment its more painful than pulling out nose hair.

icedsushi · Post by **icedsushi** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:05 pm

I don't get it. Why has noone mentioned this?:

It's shown on this page under "Many Other Improvements".

If it's not a bezier curve, it's certainly an improvement. What is it?

BigBuddha · Post by **BigBuddha** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:09 pm

icedsushi wrote:I don't get it. Why has noone mentioned this?:

It's shown on this page under "what's new in Live 7".

If it's not a bezier curve, it's certainly an improvement. What is it?

Guess thtat must be a screenshot from Operator! If Ableton implemented bezier curves it must be in the beta right now..

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:10 pm

icedsushi wrote:I don't get it. Why has noone mentioned this?:

It's shown on this page under "Many Other Improvements".

If it's not a bezier curve, it's certainly an improvement. What is it?

is a two direction curve.. you can only pull it up and down..

icedsushi · Post by **icedsushi** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:12 pm

Well if the 2 direction curve is now available as automation on arrange page, certainly that IS an improvement.

Or is it just a shot from operator?

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:12 pm

BigBuddha wrote:
icedsushi wrote:I don't get it. Why has noone mentioned this?:

It's shown on this page under "what's new in Live 7".

If it's not a bezier curve, it's certainly an improvement. What is it?
Guess thtat must be a screenshot from Operator! If Ableton implemented bezier curves it must be in the beta right now..

no.. only on Sampler.. and its not a real bezier curve..