yet another rant about time signature automation

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:03 pm

am I missing something here? I just made 2 impulse loops in session view, one is in 4/4 and the other is in 6/8. how did I do that? switch to triplets grid and draw in a 6/8 pattern. I must be missing something cause that seems like the easiest thing ever.

Johnisfaster · Post by **Johnisfaster** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:07 pm

and then I made a 7/8 pattern..... and then a 5/8ths pattern. seriously, someone explain to me why this isn't a good solution?

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:16 pm

Tone Deft wrote: Look, you can do a song in a 5/11 time signature with a tape recorder, no time signature control there. If you need a 5/11 metronome, make one, follow mode 11 clips, first clip different than the rest, bouce to audio.

I asked if the OP even TRIED or just gave up because people have completely given up on it. I love Live partly because it's so damn flexible and I like the challenge of setting weird shit up. If he didn't even try, who cares, his limitation at that point is himself.

I also know that none of us know how the rest of the forum works, what everyone's skill levels are, where we're all coming from. The limitations are fact, how you let that effect you is up to you. It's all really obvious by now.

You're a complete tool.

popslut · Post by **popslut** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:24 pm

thelocalhost wrote:
You're a complete tool.

You're the one shouting at the internet.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:28 pm

thelocalhost wrote:
Tone Deft wrote: Look, you can do a song in a 5/11 time signature with a tape recorder, no time signature control there. If you need a 5/11 metronome, make one, follow mode 11 clips, first clip different than the rest, bouce to audio.

I asked if the OP even TRIED or just gave up because people have completely given up on it. I love Live partly because it's so damn flexible and I like the challenge of setting weird shit up. If he didn't even try, who cares, his limitation at that point is himself.

I also know that none of us know how the rest of the forum works, what everyone's skill levels are, where we're all coming from. The limitations are fact, how you let that effect you is up to you. It's all really obvious by now.
You're a complete tool.

Nice post, I think of you even more highly now. I honestly don't care, vent on me, use me, abuse me, you're just frustrated. You brought up an interesting issue and made some good points, I discuss, you name call. If you need to vent on the internet for issues in your personal life I'm here for you.

You could learn a few things from kitty

Kitty can't use multiple time signatures and kitty can find time to relax.

thelocalhost · Post by **thelocalhost** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:16 am

Tone Deft wrote: Nice post, I think of you even more highly now. I honestly don't care, vent on me, use me, abuse me, you're just frustrated. You brought up an interesting issue and made some good points, I discuss, you name call. If you need to vent on the internet for issues in your personal life I'm here for you.

Thanks. I thought it was a pretty solid post.

You and popslut should get together and make some killer beats.

Remember, the snare always goes on 2 and 4.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:25 am

That's a great tip, thanks!! You're right, that works!! I'd make beats with Popslut but he wouldn't have me, would you?? Hells no.

snowtires · Post by **snowtires** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:11 am

Tone Deft wrote:
chis wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:You didn't start so it wasn't Live that held you back it was you. Just sayin...
More rubbish from you Tone, what is your problem? Not all of us want to use Live to make straight 4/4 tunes of (insert pretty much any electronica genre here).

I would really like to see an "event list" in Live - I don't see how time sig automation could be done "visually" like all the other automation currently available in Live. So an event list with bar position, tempo and time sig - yes, just like Logic - would be ace. Edit: Have this appear down the right-hand side where tutorials and sample management currently go. Ideal.

But no, because Tone Daft *cough* wants to write 4/4 trance numbers, the rest of us obviously don't need time sig automation.

(Although, I will say, right now I'm more concerned that Ableton fix the bloody MIDI timing.)
wow, the natives are restless.

Look, you can do a song in a 5/11 time signature with a tape recorder, no time signature control there. If you need a 5/11 metronome, make one, follow mode 11 clips, first clip different than the rest, bouce to audio.

I asked if the OP even TRIED or just gave up because people have completely given up on it. I love Live partly because it's so damn flexible and I like the challenge of setting weird shit up. If he didn't even try, who cares, his limitation at that point is himself.

I also know that none of us know how the rest of the forum works, what everyone's skill levels are, where we're all coming from. The limitations are fact, how you let that effect you is up to you. It's all really obvious by now.

i didn't even start. not because i'm 'limited' by myself or whatever the hell kind of weird logic you're running on, but because i was bored and just wanted something to do to occupy my time. dealing with live's inability to automate time signatures was not exactly on my list of 'fun things to do' when it came up. i remembered the bar of 5/4 at the end of every phrase and said, 'ah, nevermind, i don't feel like having to jury rig live to do this song.' but that's not even the point of my original post, it was that the song i thought to work on was written on a nintendo, the original nintendo, and it had changing time signatures, whereas live does not.

kooki415 · Post by **kooki415** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:28 am

why not just use follow actions? from a session oriented standpoint making time signature automatable would only incur more issues...

if your competent enough to understand complex signatures, you should be competent enough to figure out how to cope with lives setup.

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:38 am

Whether or not people want to debate if anything other than 4/4 timing is good or bad or that there can be creative workarounds, the feature of automated varied meters/timings is something which Live is lacking and most other DAWS provide, so, even if not priority for some, is something Ableton ought to at least consider implementing, especially as they now claim to not just be catering for DJs live sets but across the board DAWdom. And the original poster has a point that if you are going to introduce video options with a view to syncing audio with video, that the current fixed tempo automation is an achilles heel.

What is wrong with making product suggestions which might benefit people, even those with minority needs?

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:41 am

...Don't understand but... why do you need time signature automation?... for the metronome??? For viewing your Grid as bars...???? cuz you can use any time signature you want no??? if you want 6/8 just get a clip with 6/8... the put it in arrangement if you like....

...You could program and automate a metronome to switch time signatures using impulse or simpler...

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:04 am

...plus you've got follow actions...

leedsquietman · Post by **leedsquietman** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:29 am

I think the point the original poster was making was that in Cubase, Logic, Protools, etc you can go to the tempo track and automate the metering with like one mouse click, which then automatically divides those sections up into blocks of 5/4, 7/8 whatever timing and this is less hassle than workarounds and is particulalry useful for syncing to vid.

Now that Ableton want to play in the big boys league of DAW World, maybe they should implement some features that are common among the competition, and that would also include more video features on the next release, including SMPTE, exporting video to quicktime or avi files etc. and with those video features, meter change flexibility is more important. I read 2 articles recently on audio for video production and both mentioned multi audio cross fading and meter changes as prominent tools. And the DJs will finally be able to put their 4 on the floor beats to their 'epic' home videos shot in some dingy dive on a Sony Handycam for cheap music videos to boot...

kooki415 · Post by **kooki415** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:55 am

... but doing that would totally screw up the whole concept of warp markers.

chis · Post by **chis** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:47 am

Oscar F wrote:Well if Live was a "performance based tool" it would allow the user to transition between time signatures or multi time signature clips or any combination there of just like ummm you know any dude on an instrument performing would when performing in a band or a group of fellow musicians .

leedsquietman wrote:the feature of automated varied meters/timings is something which Live is lacking and most other DAWS provide, so, even if not priority for some, is something Ableton ought to at least consider implementing, especially as they now claim to not just be catering for DJs

Nothing much to say in reply, just quoting you both because you've actually understood the problem.

We shouldn't have to be using workarounds for such fundamental tasks during the songwriting process.