4:33 - True Minimal, or the most absurd thing ever?

stringtapper · Post by **stringtapper** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:14 am

The composition exists in the 'state' that the performer enforces on the space and on the audience, no different than how the performer of any other kind of music enforces a state on the space where they perform. When a keyboardist plays a Bach fugue they demand that the audience listen to tonal counterpoint, etc., etc. The performer of 4'33" demands that the audience merely listen, with no demands on what they listen to and more importantly what is actually heard.

subbasshead · Post by **subbasshead** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:47 am

i think its odd that its referred to as composition even though absolutely nothing at all was composed.

hah exactly!
he composed 'nothing'
its a beautiful expression of zen based perception

just a warning to any jonhny-come-latelys; dont go putting a cover or excerpt
of 4'33" on your album without going through the usual licensing!
this dude did & his lawyer is probably the only one getting rich from it...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2133426.stm

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:15 am

ubermnd wrote:the whole western world makes music according to 12 tone equal tempered gregorian temperement, a system adopted around 300 years ago because musicians had no standrard that they could compose/perform under.

Not exactly. The 12 tone chromatic system is based on certain physical properties of sound, namely the Pythagorean system which is based on the two simplest harmonic divisions : the octave (1:2) and the perfect fifth (2:3). You can build the 12 tones from the sequence of perfect fifths. It doesn't work out perfectly and so the anomaly is spread equally between the twelve tones in equal tempered tuning. European classical music is responsible for the development of the harmonic language of European classical music, not for the 12 tone system itself.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:17 am

nathannn wrote:i think its odd that its referred to as composition even though absolutely nothing at all was composed.

Sure there was! Here's the score :

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:28 am

John Cage - 4.33 (hoge.remix 4.38 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RujWm2kfRxg

why the laughter (an involuntary response) at 2:12?

spoiler questions below in tiny print below... if you're not going to fast forward through it, don't read the text below.

the purpose of the 2nd movement?

1st or 3rd movements, which was better?

Big V · Post by **Big V** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:42 am

Enrique wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
Enrique wrote:Pseudo intellectual bullshit...
Say you're right, well, how many of your songs will be talked about 40 years from now? How many people will name you as an influence?

VERY successful and historical pseudo intellectual bullshit.
I don't need to listen to a hyped "recording" (I surely won't call it a composition and even less a song) to recognize and enjoy the beauty of silence, which isn't anyone's property. And if you say it's a song, why can't I criticize it without having to answer a question such as "how many of your songs will be talked about 40 years from now"? It's only logical to assume that you've never criticized an influential person...

Actually it's not about silence at all, but to overcome the old relationship between performer and audience as separated parts.
Due to the weird situation, the audience, which rested in awaiting silence at the beginning, starts to get nervous after some while.
some start to cough, some to giggle or to chat and some shout something in the room or whatever.
And that is exactly what the piece is about: turning the audience (as a former separated part from the performer) into the piece.
This only makes sense if played live and if the audience doesn't know nothing about the piece (or it will react in another way and the spontaneity will be lost).
No sense in listening to the tune over your stereo. Better listen to the dripping of your water-tap because it's more fun..

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:01 pm

Enrique wrote:Pseudo intellectual bullshit...

exactamundo.

are you peons enjoying your circle-jerk ?

Daim · Post by **Daim** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:20 pm

more innovative than any so called minimal production u can find in the electronic music scene..

Plastic Hassle · Post by **Plastic Hassle** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:32 pm

True silence can only be experienced in a vacuum, therefore true silence can never be experienced. On a similar note Brian Eno suggested an experiment where you make a recording of street/enviromental sounds about the length of a 7" single and then play and listen to it repeatedly. After a while you start to hear it as music with a structure and rhythm of it's own.

pepezabala · Post by **pepezabala** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:42 pm

If you think that 4:33 is boring, then you need to learn about "Organ2/ASLSP".

The slowest and longest piece of music in the world
John-Cage-Organ-Project in Halberstadt, Germany

Since September 5, 2000, which is the 88th birthday of the avantgarde composer and artist John Cage, the slowest and longest concert that the world has ever heard has been playing: ORGAN2/ASLSP As Slow aS Possible that means this piece of music, for the organ, will be performed for 639 years in the church of St. Burchardi in Halberstadt.

Link: http://www.john-cage.halberstadt.de

In November the piece will have the next note-change moment,

"More than 1,000 music-lovers showed up on Saturday, July 5, in a German town to hear a change of note in the longest-running and slowest piece of music ever composed. Eccentric US composer John Cage (1912-1992) planned his composition to last 639 years, meaning more than a dozen generations of musicians will be needed to play it on an automatic, as-yet unfinished organ at Halberstadt, Germany.
Entitled ORGAN2/ASLSP, it began in 2001 and has so far reached its sixth note. The second part of the name means "as slow as possible."
Neighbors have got used to the monotonous tone coming out of the former Church of St. Burchard, which was used as a pig-sty in the communist years of East Germany. At first the all-day-and-night tone sounded something like an air-raid siren.

One step at a time
The audience hushed on Saturday as two more organ pipes were added alongside the four installed so far and the tone became more complex at 3:33 p.m. local time. The second of the new pipes is set to kick in this November. A machine keeps the sound coming out.
Since some notes will not be needed for decades, pipes need only be added when donations suffice.
Organizers in Halberstadt rejected questions about what it all means.
"It doesn’t mean anything," one of them said. "It’s just there."
Other works by avant-garde composer Cage include one piece that consists of four minutes and 33 seconds of silence. "

thesmallisbeautiful · Post by **thesmallisbeautiful** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:14 pm

ethios4 wrote:
ubermnd wrote:the whole western world makes music according to 12 tone equal tempered gregorian temperement, a system adopted around 300 years ago because musicians had no standrard that they could compose/perform under.
Not exactly. The 12 tone chromatic system is based on certain physical properties of sound, namely the Pythagorean system which is based on the two simplest harmonic divisions : the octave (1:2) and the perfect fifth (2:3). You can build the 12 tones from the sequence of perfect fifths. It doesn't work out perfectly and so the anomaly is spread equally between the twelve tones in equal tempered tuning. European classical music is responsible for the development of the harmonic language of European classical music, not for the 12 tone system itself.

That's not really 100% true IMO. The adoption of the 12 equal divided octave is a response to the desire to change key centers in music. 12-equal tunings are actually quite a bit off from anything resembling the physical properties of sound. The 5th is pretty close to 2/3, but it's off by like 2.5 cents and causes audible beating, you can hear how it's out of tune if you learn what to listen for. The third is off by like 15 cents from any reasonably small integer relationship. The system was designed not to reflect the properties of sound, but to allow unrestricted harmonic modulation. The need for modulation has subsumed many other elements of music and sound. The history of European classical music can be seen as continued extensions of the harmonic modulation allowed by the 12 equal system leading ultimately to post-Wagnerian composers who changed keys several times a bar, leading Schoenberg to reject the tonal system altogether. His pupils (including one John Cage) took it even further, rejecting the need to restrict music to only sounds with one of 12 specific pitches. We are all working in the world Cage created, you really cannot over estimate his importance in the history of music.

The "meaning" of 4'33" is up for debate obviously, but it seems to have arisen from an experience he had in an anechoic chamber. Instead of hearing silence, as he expected to, he heard a low pitched sound and a high pitched sound. On exiting, he learned that those were the sounds of his vascular and nervous system. It turns out that no living human being can ever hear silence, it simply doesn't exist. Cage's way of composing was to figure out ways to have people pay attention to sounds, instead of trying to impose his will on them. Some people have no use for this, and some people are profoundly affected by it. 4'33" is not a joke, it's the result of years of study and work, and built on serious sonic and philosophical principles.

Cage is also a huge figure in the history of both electronic and sample based music, and anyone who thinks his work is "useless" is just being willfully ignorant.

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:35 pm

I think ethios was talking about the origins of there being 12 notes to begin with, not the well-tempered tuning.

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:46 pm

thesmallisbeautiful wrote:Some people have no use for this....

...and anyone who thinks his work is "useless" is just being willfully ignorant.

you are correct, i have no use for this, nor a 639 or whatever year long tune. sure, i can spank my monkey for days, but four minutes does the trick. and yes, i have never knowingly listened to dudes "music," nor do i plan to... the 4:33 crap ensured that. ignorance is bliss, i don't have to listen to his pretentious bullshit. i'm sure he was "the first" to discover silence (rather the music there-in the lack-of)... lol. more like the first to capitalize on it. what do you expect, he was american, like that cunt bag warhol... REAL important, and nothing we have would have been possible blahblahblah.

but hey, enjoy what you enjoy!

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:27 pm

dcease wrote:i have never knowingly listened to dudes "music," nor do i plan to... the 4:33 crap ensured that. ignorance is bliss, i don't have to listen to his pretentious bullshit.

How very broadminded of you.

I very much enjoy Cage's works for prepared piano.

dcease · Post by **dcease** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:34 pm

once again, in case you missed it...

dcease wrote:but hey, enjoy what you enjoy!