Zeitgeist part 2: Addendum

iivanov · Post by **iivanov** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:18 pm

the aforementioned unnecessary metaphysical conclusion offered in the first zeitgeist is exactly what bothered me about it too, but it was interesting to know about the fed and all.

the discussion about the fact that it's bad to strive for a utopia is i think unapplicable since the venus project seems to not be a plan with any metannarative. I don't think it's in any way a utopia either. if we just started using alternative energy, the world would be better than it is now. I don't think the venus project will turn out like shown in those 3d videos in the film at all. there would be problems, major problems. but I don't think there's any question that it will be BETTER than what we have now???

I really don't know if government can be completely erradicated, I think the evils of mankind that don't stem from societal depravities would still be in place therefore requiring a police system. but again, there's no question that any such government still existing in a resourse based society would be WAY better than what we have now because their sole purpose would be to uphold safety.

but fresco seems to imply that any government at all is unacceptable, even if all it does is control a police system. so I'm a bit confused there. no robot will replace the job of FBI agents, and if we try to replicate any sort of rationality to create an artificially intelligent law enforcer, we're pretty much fucked by the obvious implications of this. human labour will be diminished in the resource based society, but how would it function without a government at all? surely you can't expect the entire population to be peaceful.

then there's the Dostoevskian argument that humans are innately perverse and will go against any system out of spite or boredom or whatever. sure, but a resourse based society would still be better than what we have now. the venus project is not utilitarian (leaving out the interests of minorities), it benefits everyone.

Aequitas123 · Post by **Aequitas123** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:22 pm

The only thing i found wrong with the first Zeitgeist was the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Everything regarding Religion and the US and World Banks was spot on.

Also, saw Religulous last night and would definitely recommend it.

iivanov · Post by **iivanov** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:50 pm

Aequitas123 wrote: Will a monetary based society be required to build this?

yes but it will eventually eat itself no? obviously everything is gradual. the fact that it will requre our monetary system to build this doesn't pose any contradiction. in what other way would it be built? money will be used to take money out of the equasion.

ethios4 wrote: Sorry, not interested in armchair philosopher pipe dreams...I have enough of my own already.

too bad Fresco is by no means an armchair philosopher and is doing everything in his power to make this thing work. it's cool and all to be a wiser-than-all realist sceptic but what do you suggest as an alternative? surely it's not accpeting that "pipe dreams" are impossible and we should watch the world go to hell within the next 50 years?

also from watching this movie I realized how marginalized most actually important thinkers are. people seem to shrug off an anonymous internet poster with a great idea because of the unconscious condition that he's not a famous philosopher. while we have sensationalized "thinkers" like richard dawkins, bill maher, etc that have some persona that people relate to and are funny and all, all the actually important stuff is lurking in the shadows. this is why the internet is probably the saviour of humankind in our age.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:24 pm

iivanov wrote:too bad Fresco is by no means an armchair philosopher and is doing everything in his power to make this thing work. it's cool and all to be a wiser-than-all realist sceptic but what do you suggest as an alternative? surely it's not accpeting that "pipe dreams" are impossible and we should watch the world go to hell within the next 50 years?

Like I said, I haven't even watched all of this yet, so I don't know what the Venus Project stuff is about, or who Fresco is. The armchair philosopher comment was in regards to Peter Joseph's contradictory musings on oneness, and my own feelings that utopianism usually makes fatal errors in assuming the best about humans. I haven't watched enough to know whether the Venus Project is utopian or not...and what I mean by utopian is the belief that it is possible to construct a perfect human society, which I do not believe in.

Of course I'm not suggesting we all just watch the world go to hell, but I do think deceptive media such as Zeitgeist is part of the problem, not the solution. I imagine that the solution looks more like each of us becoming "the change we wish to see in the world" and working out from there, engaging our neighbors in positive relationships, making sacrifices to conform our lives to what is beneficial, building our communities, and committing each day to loving each other. I also think the solution will involve accepting that death and decay is every bit a part of this world as birth and growth.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:30 pm

Aequitas123 wrote:The only thing i found wrong with the first Zeitgeist was the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Everything regarding Religion and the US and World Banks was spot on.

I mean no disrespect, but if you think Zeitgeist was spot on about religion, you really should do more research. Other than stating the obvious that people have used religion to control other people, Zeitgeist was very very inaccurate, deceptive, and insulting on the subject. The amazing thing to me is that so many people accept it without much question, which is exactly the claim leveled against the religious.

Donnie · Post by **Donnie** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:11 pm

Aequitas123 wrote:The only thing i found wrong with the first Zeitgeist was Everything regarding Religion and the US and World Banks was spot on.

Like stated, the first Zeitgeist was riddled with error when it comes to religion. Although they put up a convincing argument to some, those who have an in depth knowledge of religion(s) (and no im not talking your average church goer) can easily point out the glaring mistakes and assumptions that were made.

The first movie would have been much better if the religion part was more accurate. Kind of a shame really.

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:51 pm

Wow, OK I'm watching the 2nd hour of this....it's very exciting! Talking about doing away with monetary systems...reminds me of the Rainbow Gathering, where money is not used (except to get there, and for the supplies you bring in). My experience there was incredibly positive. We had a community of about 30,000 built without money....if you wanted to eat, there was someone ready to feed you, if you wanted something to smoke, there was someone offering. No one made me work, but I could see that if the fire wasn't tended there would be no heat for cooking. There were no police, and if someone got out of hand it was dealt with peacefully. I don't know how to describe it other than that things JUST WORKED. So, this Venus Project idea is exciting and thought provoking.

It all seems to rest on this idea that money is the root of all evil. It begs the question of how monetary systems came to be in the first place. If there is no law, how are you going to enforce the disuse of money? What if 1000 years into this money-less society, people start using certain objects to represent other things, and begin trading these proxy objects? Is that to be outlawed?

Still watching....

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:22 pm

Well, damn they lost me again with the pounding on religion. Jeez, I like these ideas, but I get the feeling I'm not wanted....

Donnie · Post by **Donnie** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:51 pm

The first half of the addendum with the monetary system was excellent.

Aequitas123 · Post by **Aequitas123** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:36 pm

ethios4 wrote:Well, damn they lost me again with the pounding on religion. Jeez, I like these ideas, but I get the feeling I'm not wanted....

Don't worry the atheist/agnostic community is very accepting!

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:58 am

Pffft, hardly...

Aequitas123 · Post by **Aequitas123** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:05 am

ethios4 wrote:Pffft, hardly...

Sure, simply base your opinions and beliefs on quantifiable evidence and life a happy rational life!

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:47 am

ethios4 wrote:Pffft, hardly...

you should experience how the christian world treats atheists.

I don't care one way or another, I much more favor respect and interesting conversations.

silverlulu · Post by **silverlulu** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:26 am

forgive my immaturity but whether or not both films are 100% accurate, and whether or not utopia is where we wanna go...

the government and corporations are enslaving us and screwing the world over for profit right? are they planning one world government? total control of us? are they deliberately destroying 3rd world countries to keep them as slaves? is this 1984 style true?

it just seems that we argue over the points which divide us rather than unify on the bigger picture. so i just want to know, am i being naive in believing the main themes of zeitgeist 1&2?

since watching both films, i feel pretty depressed about the state of the world. i guess being unplugged has shaken me a bit. i just want to believe in the truth. which one is the truth?

ethios4 · Post by **ethios4** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:54 am

It is an accurate depiction of how I feel about the world, for the most part. I don't necessarily want to believe it, but the predictions of doom seem pretty spot on. We are in uncharted waters economically, the US army is openly stating their main focus will be on counterinsurgency in a destabilizing world, world tensions are escalating again. Faith in the dollar is withering.

I really like that they have specific points of action in this new Zeitgeist. Makes me think about where I bank. Interesting that they point out that the system must collapse for change to occur...I wonder how a vision like the Venus Project survives in a world after the collapse?