Updates from Afghanistan

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:51 pm

Tone Deft wrote:curious about any opinions on the beginning of the Israeli state.

I've mentioned it a couple of times over the years, but once more incase you haven't looked into it...

balfour declaration of 1917.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:13 pm

^ interesting, sorry you probably have posted that, I've kinda stayed out of this thread, lots of info, lots of rants...

cool, so basically the Brits were about to conquer Palestine, so they decided, "hey, let's give some of this land to the Jews." that was over 90 years ago and the Palestinians are still hanging on by a thread.

my reference to WWII came from the 'United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
which supplanted the Balfour Declaration.

what a mess. in reading this stuff I'm not seeing Palestine represented. you always have to read between the lines, especially on this stuff, practically the whole world is involved.

b-
so what's your view on Hamas and Hezbollah being classified as terrorist organisations?

sweetjesus · Post by **sweetjesus** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:23 pm

Hi Tone,

A picture tells a thousand words:

http://www.vtjp.org/background/MappingA ... nk.htm#Top

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:33 pm

sweetjesus wrote:Hi Tone,

A picture tells a thousand words:

http://www.vtjp.org/background/MappingA ... nk.htm#Top

I think I've seen that before but in learning new things in the last half hour, all I can say is deeeeeayaaaanm!!!

let me answer my own question

b-
so what's your view on Hamas and Hezbollah being classified as terrorist organisations?

by any means necessary. <-- dunno if I entirely believe that in this case but I do have a better grip on it all.

my head's been in the current events of the situation, the whole "they did this, they did that" is too tangled to unwind, let's look ahead and make peace between the two. but looking back at how the Palestinians have been treated for 90 years and how the Israeli state has grown on that map... the Israeli state is starting to piss me off.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:39 pm

the thieving cunts aren't just interested in land either.
google 'israel control water' or 'israel steal water'

choose your own sources

as for hamas / Hizbu'llah...
well, out of interest...look up irgun and haganah.

oh, and if you're not familiar with the term...look into 'right of return' , more importantly 'palestinian right of return'.

I'm outta here for now.

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:06 pm

Tone Deft wrote:
cool, so basically the Brits were about to conquer Palestine, so they decided, "hey, let's give some of this land to the Jews."

The Balfour Declaration, promising a Jewish homeland in Palestine, was made in November 1917 by the British Government. It was made by a European power, determined the fate of a non-European territory and completely disregarded both the presence and the wishes of the native majority in that territory, which was composed of about 700,000 palestinians at the time.

Arthur Balfour himself wrote in 1919: "The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country...The four powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land”

(The "letter of the Covenant" refers to the Anglo-French promise to the arabs of self determination and government by the consent of the governed, in return for their support against the Turks in WW I. This included an independent Palestine, which was promised to Sharif hussein by the British Foreign office.)

Balfour went on to say "In fact, so far as Palestine is concerned, the powers have made no statement of fact that is not admittedly wrong, and no declaration of policy which, at least in the letter, they have not always intended to violate"

As a result of Balfour and the subsequent partition Palestinians have been displaced from their homes and have been living in camps and under occupation for almost 60 years; after watching a 9-percent minority in Palestine grow, in 30 years (1917-1948), to establish their own exclusive and powerful nation, protected and armed by Western powers (primarily America), on land which had been theirs for 1,500 years.

So, you can see that this boils down to an extremely irresponsible act of statesmanship on behalf of the western powers, and is more complicated than what so many people describe as "they are just terrorists" who "want to take away our freedom" or "want to cast the jews into the sea".

Gonna leave you with one quote, you might find it interesting.

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” - Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in “A Land of Two Peoples”

earthloop · Post by **earthloop** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:20 pm

I agree with you bOunce! It is always especially interesting to hear the american accents in interviews...especially when the more fundamentalist Israeli religious groups are interviewed!

It seems obvious from here ( Australia) that there are mant people going to Israel just to get free land! Obscene, under the circumstances!!!

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:32 pm

earthloop wrote:I agree with you bOunce! It is always especially interesting to hear the american accents in interviews...especially when the more fundamentalist Israeli religious groups are interviewed!

It seems obvious from here ( Australia) that there are mant people going to Israel just to get free land! Obscene, under the circumstances!!!

Israel announced plans this week to build more settlements. 350 in the West Bank and 750 in East Jerusalem.

I recently read somewhere that at least 60% of israeli's are opposed to Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:11 pm

thank you smutek, I read and digested every word and will move forward with that information in mind. this shit gets glossed over in the media. I would like to get an earful from the other side, just for balance, even though that's the voice that's much louder and clearer in the US media.

then there's the tangled web of Hamas support by Syria, Iran, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia.

ThrowAway · Post by **ThrowAway** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:25 am

M. Bréqs wrote:
ThrowAway wrote:I must be troll scripted....
No, you're not. Not for me anyways.

Regarding your earlier point, for Canada the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are not related. We didn't participate in the invasion of Iraq, but we did for Afghanistan. The two conflicts are not connected in terms of Canadian foreign policy.

We supported the Afghan campaign because it was in our self-interest, and it passed a moral test of validity.

We refused to support the Iraq invasion because it was not in our self interest, and would not have passed a moral test of validity.

'nuff said.

L8er

can you elaborate or link to a post where you did? I mean how was it in canadas self interest to invade afghanistan? I to be honest Ive stamped all pro-war news and information as bs since 2002 so maybe I missed something.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:58 am

History is filled with England playing divide and conquer. Israel is a country founded in what seems like almost entirely part of a plan to destabilize the middle east. This seems crazy until you start looking at history, and see the pattern of british "diplomacy". The most obvious example ever would be the migration of scottish protestant peasants into catholic Ireland to take over businesses and property formerly belonging to the irish. India has the same sort of history, of England using religious and ethnic differences between the indigenous people to divide and conquer.

The sad part is the jewish people were so devastated after WW2 (something like 35% of all jewish people alive were killed, hard to imagine that), that they gladly walked into a political nightmare, and still are in one. It's almost impossible to look at your own wrongdoing when confronted with the holocaust memory and suicide bombings, but it's imperative that they do at some point, or it will never end.

Time to make some music, good thing I write tense, aggressive, angry, negative, tracts!

Nod · Post by **Nod** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:06 am

smutek wrote:Israel announced plans this week to build more settlements. 350 in the West Bank and 750 in East Jerusalem. I recently read somewhere that at least 60% of israeli's are opposed to Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

http://www.hamdden.co.uk/Images/Palesti ... ss_Map.jpg

ThrowAway · Post by **ThrowAway** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:18 am

I apologize for calling you a murderer, you say your there for the benefit of human kind so I cant fault you for that(however misguided I think it is). Its my belief that nothing good will ever come from warring in the middle east. Its a fact that the western governments have poorly treated the inhabitants of the land for the last half century or so. Now we rage war because "they" attacked "us". True diplomacy is the only way to peace. Wars create extremists . this war is creating another generation of extremists that havent been born yet. It has been reported that with each invasion the membership of taliban, al queada etc etc have spiked to the point of doubleing or tripling(after iraq). History repeats itself over and over. this method of discourse only leads to more war and suffering. its a perpetuating cycle. This war made america and canada far more unsafe.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:28 am

ThrowAway wrote:This war made america and canada far more unsafe.

and england, and other european nations.

ThrowAway · Post by **ThrowAway** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:31 am

b0unce wrote:
ThrowAway wrote:This war made america and canada far more unsafe.
and england, and other european nations.

To state it correctly "this war has made the world far more unsafe" for fucks sake even thailand has had bombs go off because of the war.