Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[BoimB son of BoB]

It's interesting how the loudest atheists, both on this bb and current hot-selling authors - are all Christian.

read what you are saying here and find out the stupidity of that sentence.

man the more you talk the more you show your sick mind.

[i3igTripplets]

I'm agnostic at the moment. But seriously people, religion can be a good thing. Considering most of the worlds population is poor, I think a little after-life optimism can be a good thing for ones' current situations (and frustrations). Sometimes I wish there were a god to damn those that do very wrong things in this world. I hope theres a hell for murderers, rapists, and corrupt politicians.

That said, if it werent for religion, we'd be fighting over something else. Heck, anything else (Science H Logic!)

But to each his own, I enjoy being left alone.

[pilcrow]

Well just come back from Bible study and have a couple of things to report:

Religion is a haven for the misbeliever (ref: Pharisees of Matthew 3:7)

Do not love the world or anything in the world. (1 John 2:15)

Oh and the obvious: if a person has to go through Christ to get eternal life - what happens to the righteous African tribesman who died in 500AD without ever hearing of Christ?

Holy crap! After a successful 2000-year run, Christianity's Achilles heel is exposed by an alert poster on a music-software forum, and the entire edifice crumbles! Take the rest of the day off, Simon.

disturbing isn't it! the bible is full of crap just open it and read the first page it doesn't take a scientist to see all the ridicule in it. it takes a dumbass (brainwashed) these days to actually give more value to it than some of the ethics (often sick ethics) it has. or flawed account of history for that matter.

Yeah, especially that golden rule crap! And "love your enemies"! What complete hoo-hah!

[shtreimel]

It's interesting how the loudest atheists, both on this bb and current hot-selling authors - are all Christian.

read what you are saying here and find out the stupidity of that sentence.

man the more you talk the more you show your sick mind.

Sick mind? Please explain.

[shtreimel]

your point being? because a MIT guy talks shit, we should all get on our knees now?? give me a break. will be an interesting book though. can't wait to read the critics

No. But with comments like this:

the bible is full of crap just open it and read the first page it doesn't take a scientist to see all the ridicule in it

You'd think all these religious scientists would figure out how silly the whole thing is. Hell, in our book club alone we've got:
1) Otolaryngologists Resident
2) Psychiatry Resident
3) Anesthesiologist
4) And a Math Prof

I have no doubt that, once they find out the Bible's crap, will pack up, go home, and worship Dawkins

Funny how Dawkins couldn't convince his colleague Collins that the Bible's nothing but a myth either? Guess the atheists have to brush up on their salesmanship skills. Can't help but wonder how many of you vocal atheists had you wee wee's played with when you were alter boys, and instead of seeking therapy, are talking shit on this bb. Just wondering.

[Machinesworking]

Can't help but wonder how many of you vocal atheists had you wee wee's played with when you were alter boys, and instead of seeking therapy, are talking shit on this bb. Just wondering.

I don't have to add anything to that. It would be in everybody's best interest to ignore this guy in relation to serious discussions on religion. He obviously isn't here for a friendly debate. Just trying to bring people down to his level.

Funny part is he admitted he's the convert, that his upbringing didn't offer the golden glimpse into the purity that is judaism etc. blah blah.

What are you running from shtreimal? My parents were and are, largely agnostic, very open ended in what they believe about religion etc. I'm not running from anything personally. Hell I even agree with their politics. You, on the other hand, have publicly stated that your upbringing was void of all this beauty and love you see in the religious jewish community. You have publicly admitted your own preoccupation with your feeling that your own upbringing was lacking. You have basically admitted that you felt deprived, and so like people are inclined to do, you seek out people that are similar to your parents and attack them. Another example of that little old 'sympathizing with the abuser' thing you're prone to indulging in.
You are the only person here who can't see that, you backed yourself into that corner. Funniest part is that last little jab there, it speaks so much more about your mental state than any of ours.

[Novel]

Hi what kind of fader is good for Live?

[shtreimel]

I don't have to add anything to that. It would be in everybody's best interest to ignore this guy in relation to serious discussions  on religion. He obviously isn't here for a friendly debate. Just trying to bring people down to his level.

Friendly debate   Are you being serious? Here's the 4th post (from page one)  by Bombs from this thread:
"i have no respect for religion, NONE. it's the only thing i have no respect for."

You'd have to wade through 20 + more for the condescending and uninformed jabs at God, the Bible, etc. The gloves were dropped quite a while back.

Funny part is he admitted he's the convert, that his upbringing didn't offer the golden glimpse into the purity that is judaism etc. blah blah.

Convert? (a Jews a Jew regardless of what s/he believes...but you knew that already)

So you mean humans can't grow...discover new things? I'm assuming you always were into digital audio technology, right? Or when you were 3, you oral sex interesting, huh? Nah, people aren't allowed to grow, mature, discover new things, only fools do that sort of stuff.

My parents were and are, largely agnostic, very open ended in what they believe about religion etc.

Really now? So you're parent's are mostly agnostic, but open to religion. Funny, my agnostic friends couldn't give religion/prayer the time of day. You must have very evolved parent's. Any developmental psychologist will tell you that paren'ts beliefs shape their kids beliefs...almost 100% of the time (and then there's the kids who do the exact opposite, but for the therapists on the bb, we already know that's the same thing).

your upbringing was void of all this beauty and love you see in the religious jewish community.

Pal, it's a bb. You know very little about me. I could be a cop perusing Ableton for pedophiles. So before you print out that Object Relations PhD template in Microsoft Word, you may wanna remind yourself of the context we're debating in.

Another example of that little old 'sympathizing with the abuser' thing you're prone to indulging in.

I'm assuming you're refering to the The Stockholm Syndrome. You keep bringing this again and again, and I'm not sure why. Please explain how I'm sympathising with my captor...enemy, etc. I truly have no idea what you're going on about.

You are the only person here who can't see that, you backed yourself into that corner. Funniest part is that last little jab there, it speaks so much more about your mental state than any of ours.

Right...right, I'm such a fool that I've got a bunch of ya Ableton Dawkin fans ripping apart my comments/beliefs. It's odd, because you'd think y'all would have better things to do with your time than debate such a light weight religious wacko. So the question really is, why waste your time?

[Seyser Koze]

Hi what kind of fader is good for Live?

Yeah Dawkins says one that is not really linked to one particular DAW works best.

You could use the alternative "skygod" fader. It promises nirvana but sadly only after your dead. In the mean time you have to waste a lot of time setting up for death and of course then you won't be able to use it anyway.

Strangely, it's still very popular. However, there are different models of "skygod" fader and the owners of these different models can really dislike each other.

Sometimes the poorer "skygod" fader owners throw stones at the rich ones who live next door and then the rich ones blow up their children with attack helicopters. that can be a serious disadvantage if your trying to enjoy your life and make good music.

And all because of a silly misunderstanding. Tsk.

Another disadvantage of the "skygod" fader is that your forced to follow ridiculous rules in a manual that was written over 2000 years ago and is impossible to follow due to poor translation.

This make it very difficult to behave rationally or have anyone take you seriously.

Also, the music you make with the "skygod" fader all sounds the same, a bit like a stuck record, and when you try to modify it at best you get shunned by your peers and at worst you get stoned to death, but at least then you are rewarded with the nirvana promise.

Although, wouldn't you know it, when you get there you realise your "skygod" fader isn't compatible at all and the guys next door were right all along, or worse, there isn't anything there at all.

Best to use a fader that assumes all things are equal and works on the probability that the "skygod" fader is utter shit.

You'll get some good results.

let me know if you have difficulty with the "programming" i know a good book that'll sort you out.

[Machinesworking]

Hi what kind of fader is good for Live?

Yeah Dawkins says one that is not really linked to one particular DAW works best.

You could use the alternative "skygod" fader. It promises nirvana but sadly only after your dead. In the mean time you have to waste a lot of time setting up for death and of course then you won't be able to use it anyway.

Strangely, it's still very popular. However, there are different models of "skygod" fader and the owners of these different models can really dislike each other.

Sometimes the poorer "skygod" fader owners throw stones at the rich ones who live next door and then the rich ones blow up their children with attack helicopters. that can be a serious disadvantage if your trying to enjoy your life and make good music.

And all because of a silly misunderstanding. Tsk.

Another disadvantage of the "skygod" fader is that your forced to follow ridiculous rules in a manual that was written over 2000 years ago and is impossible to follow due to poor translation.

This make it very difficult to behave rationally or have anyone take you seriously.

Also, the music you make with the "skygod" fader all sounds the same, a bit like a stuck record, and when you try to modify it at best you get shunned by your peers and at worst you get stoned to death, but at least then you are rewarded with the nirvana promise.

Although, wouldn't you know it, when you get there you realise your "skygod" fader isn't compatible at all and the guys next door were right all along, or worse, there isn't anything there at all.

Best to use a fader that assumes all things are equal and works on the probability that the "skygod" fader is utter shit.

You'll get some good results.

let me know if you have difficulty with the "programming" i know a good book that'll sort you out.

[Machinesworking]

I don't have to add anything to that. It would be in everybody's best interest to ignore this guy in relation to serious discussions  on religion. He obviously isn't here for a friendly debate. Just trying to bring people down to his level.

Friendly debate   Are you being serious? Here's the 4th post (from page one)  by Bombs from this thread:
"i have no respect for religion, NONE. it's the only thing i have no respect for."

You'd have to wade through 20 + more for the condescending and uninformed jabs at God, the Bible, etc. The gloves were dropped quite a while back.

Just a simple point here, Bombs refered to religion, he did not refer to religious people, big difference. I can have a ton of respect for you, but little respect for a particular belief you have. If you demand that I respect your belief etc. then we have problems.

You started off your chats on this board about the question of religion and atheism with the statement that atheists just weren't your type of people, and you continued to use the moniker to level personal attacks, there is a huge difference between saying, " I have no respect for atheism" and insinuating, like you have consistently that you have no respect for atheists. Even going as far as to try to depict atheism as a clan of some sort with a consistent guideline of beliefs and moral code.
All of that makes it near impossible to really have any real discussion with you about the subject. Which is sort of sad, because you're obviously not stupid, at least not intellectually stupid.

AFA agnostics, personally, and in most circles the difference between atheists and agnostics is significant. The common use of the term agnostic is to describe somebody who is of the belief that they do not know what happens to them when they die, or if there is a god. Some agnostics believe that mankind cannot know, and others believe that they personally are not sure what to believe, but it's possible that someone has it right.
Atheists for the most part believe that there is no afterlife, that god is merely a construct of mans mind. Some are more agnostic, but choose to call themselves atheist because they do not believe that any religion man has come up with is remotely plausible.
So all told agnostics are the most open minded of the bunch. atheists and the devoutly religious tend to have concrete ideas they feel are correct. With that in mind, I don't get at all your comments on agnostics?

In regards to sympathizing with the abuser, it relates to the human frailty Stockholm syndrome a bit, but only at surface level. Psychologists refer to it when dealing with child abusers that were beaten as children etc. Basically the person subject to abuse sympathizes with the power that the abuser wields and wishes to have that sort of influence over other people in the same way. It's not being a good slave/captive/victim ala Stockholm etc., it's wishing and gaining that power and control for yourself, and eventually using it to perpetuate the cycle of abuse. A countries reaction to hostile takeover after it gains freedom is to annex it's neighbor as soon as it gains power enough to wield that sort of control itself.
A people are enslaved, abused and mistreated, they in turn become the abuser when given the chance. Instead of recognizing and becoming sympathetic towards those with little or no power themselves, they use the same tactics to isolate and paint the next in line as less than human.
Now that racism and ethnic hatred are considered taboo, the next in line is homosexuality, then atheists, and on to the people who don't like cheese etc.
You can say all you want about how it cannot be compared, and that the bible explicitly states that atheists and homosexuals are this and that etc. but the most common reason given for hatred towards the jews by christians has been in my experience biblically based as well. "They killed Jesus you know?" (Don't worry, my response is always, "Jesus was a jew you dumb fucker!")

You keep on saying Hitler wasn't religious, but the nazi soldiers had a biblical quote on their dammed belt buckles....

[pilcrow]

Another disadvantage of the "skygod" fader is that your forced to follow ridiculous rules in a manual that was written over 2000 years ago and is impossible to follow due to poor translation.

Yeah, crazy stuff like "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do good to those who harm you." It's utter rot.

[Machinesworking]

Another disadvantage of the "skygod" fader is that your forced to follow ridiculous rules in a manual that was written over 2000 years ago and is impossible to follow due to poor translation.

Yeah, crazy stuff like "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do good to those who harm you." It's utter rot.

Oddly enough you quote one passage that has never made sense to me. Why on earth would you want to do good to those that harm you? That's ridiculous. Sure, don't stoop to their level, but I sure as hell am not offering cookies to the guy who cuts my arm off?
Anton LeVay is rolling over in his grave!

[mdk]

You keep on saying Hitler wasn't religious, but the nazi soldiers had a biblical quote on their dammed belt buckles....

Hitler was ostensibly Catholic, but only later on revealed his personal distaste for the church. (and only in private I think, im not sure as I havent studied this topic)

Obviously the impression of religiousness was important with the general populace, much as it is today with america and George Bush. Mind you I think he does actually believe what he says, personally I think its the result of alcohol abuse, others apparently believe its another form of mental illness. Whatever it is, its dangerous.

On a previous note about how long religion has been a focal point for humanity then surely if religion was effective at making people better then we wouldnt be in such a shitty situation now, after all its been around for thousands of years.
Duration and popularity dont prove that anything is good for humanity, McDonalds has been around for 70 years and millions of people eat there everyday. The damage is pretty much self evident. (from McDonalds and religion)

[shtreimel]

Just a simple point here, Bombs refered to religion, he did not refer to religious people, big difference. I can have a ton of respect for you, but little respect for a particular belief you have. If you demand that I respect your belief etc. then we have problems.

To paraphrase...the general consensus on the board is that religion, God the Bible are silly and why can't religious people comprehend how silly the whole enterprise is?. I'm providing a contrary point of view...that being, you can be bright, well educated, and fascinated with both science and God (though science ain't my bag, my fiance and her friends, all religious, all have read Dawkins, etc...though being religious, think he's whacked). I don't think atheists are stupid, rather I find they rarely DO what they claim doesn't work. And worse, when folks start discussing things they know very little about i.e. Hassidic Laws, etc., they deserve blog-beat down.

there is a huge difference between saying, " I have no respect for atheism" and insinuating, like you have consistently that you have no respect for atheists.

You're right, and you're right. Actually, I find atheist and agnostic writings interesting. It's the people that are annoying. And while it's a nasty thing to say, I'd understand someone who states: "Judaism is quite beautiful, but Jews can be a tad cheap and parochial". And guess what...they'd be right.

In regards to sympathizing with the abuser....

In previous post I alluded to what I do from 9-5. Having done graduate studies in narrative, psychodynamic and systems therapy, I'm quite aware of this phenomenon. Personally, I think you've misued the term with respect to the ideas/beliefs I've expressed. That's all.

You can say all you want about how it cannot be compared, and that the bible explicitly states that atheists and homosexuals are this and that etc. but the most common reason given for hatred towards the jews by christians has been in my experience biblically based as well. "They killed Jesus you know?" (Don't worry, my response is always, "Jesus was a jew you dumb fucker!")

We don't disagree. But this has little to do with "sympathizing with the abuser". Anyway, last I checked, Jews, from time immemorial, have never stoned anyone to death. If nothing else, we understand subtly, metaphor and obey the "law of the land". I wish I could say the same for other monotheistic religions.

You keep on saying Hitler wasn't religious, but the nazi soldiers had a biblical quote on their dammed belt buckles....  

Interesting, I didn't know about the quote on the belt. However scholars are divided with respect to Hitler's adherence to Catholicism, however you can replace him with Caligula, Mao, Saddam Hussein, or Kim Jung Il, Pol Pot and/or Stalin as examples of non-religious sorts who were responsible for countless deaths of innocents. Point being, it's easy to sling mud at religion post 9-11, but God fearing folks will have to murder more than a few million more to catch up to their non-religious counterparts.