Ableton Forum

PM'ed.

leedsquietman wrote:Not a rare breed mate, but a studio engineer who bothered to learn more than Pro Tools and Logic, I'm certified in both of those for working purposes, although this in itself doesn't mean that much but 8 years using those 2 systems at work plus Live and Cubase (which I was using since the Atari ST days) at home adds up to a decent knowledge of those systems) and yes, over the course of several years spent more time tweaking and twiddling sh*t and getting geeky with software for others and self than enjoying making his own music, that part is correct ! Then again, recording and engineering is a passion as valid as being a musician or a DJ.

I apologize if I seem like I was shouting off the lip but the magazine article (which maybe took things out of context, or edited your comments, or whatever) does SEEM to make a bold claim that you regard Live as basically fine for Live use or composition, but isn't serious enough to mix down with - I don't know if this is what you intended, but this is how it reads to some people. Maybe you can clarify this to pre-empt others making generalizations or misinformation ?

I get where you're coming from re the Nuendo mixer and some of the plugins, I really do - However, Live is fine for mixing down, the quality of the mix comes from the skill of the operator regardless of which system you use. That one system gets you from A to B quicker I get, this is not the same though as suggesting system A is good, system B is not - which some people will interpret as the message. Maybe you can set us straight?

sure...respects then...here we go...go find some 15" monitors ala jbl 4430's(only way you'll hear what bothers me), get a kick with a nice big bunch of 40hz and some decay then a/b live's rendering of just the kick(it sounds just a hair thinner and more click in the attack than the original kinda plastic sounding for lack of a better term) and let's for argument sake say N5's rendering(which sounds a tad fuller and more like the original midi vst plugs sound) It's there...trust me...you just won't hear it with regular 8" monitors...it only reveals itself in the extreme low end. This is what we all talk about and since i deal mainly in low end all day...this is a huge arrrgh for me.

df

Anybody else agree that Villalobos is chatting through his arse?

nigel1 wrote:

leedsquietman wrote:Not a rare breed mate, but a studio engineer who bothered to learn more than Pro Tools and Logic, I'm certified in both of those for working purposes, although this in itself doesn't mean that much but 8 years using those 2 systems at work plus Live and Cubase (which I was using since the Atari ST days) at home adds up to a decent knowledge of those systems) and yes, over the course of several years spent more time tweaking and twiddling sh*t and getting geeky with software for others and self than enjoying making his own music, that part is correct ! Then again, recording and engineering is a passion as valid as being a musician or a DJ.

I apologize if I seem like I was shouting off the lip but the magazine article (which maybe took things out of context, or edited your comments, or whatever) does SEEM to make a bold claim that you regard Live as basically fine for Live use or composition, but isn't serious enough to mix down with - I don't know if this is what you intended, but this is how it reads to some people. Maybe you can clarify this to pre-empt others making generalizations or misinformation ?

I get where you're coming from re the Nuendo mixer and some of the plugins, I really do - However, Live is fine for mixing down, the quality of the mix comes from the skill of the operator regardless of which system you use. That one system gets you from A to B quicker I get, this is not the same though as suggesting system A is good, system B is not - which some people will interpret as the message. Maybe you can set us straight?

sure...respects then...here we go...go find some 15" monitors ala jbl 4430's(only way you'll hear what bothers me), get a kick with a nice big bunch of 40hz and some decay then a/b live's rendering of just the kick(it sounds just a hair thinner and more click in the attack than the original kinda plastic sounding for lack of a better term) and let's for argument sake say N5's rendering(which sounds a tad fuller and more like the original midi vst plugs sound) It's there...trust me...you just won't hear it with regular 8" monitors...it only reveals itself in the extreme low end. This is what we all talk about and since i deal mainly in low end all day...this is a huge arrrgh for me.

df

What is the warping setting and did you turn the clip fade button off?
Or did you load up the sample in an instrument?

Appreciate the response Dennis, thanks for the reply and sorry for coming off as bit of a c**t.

I have officially banned myself from getting in any more 'audio quality' threads here and Gearslutz, not good for my blood pressure or karma Fear not fellow travellers, next time this topic is discussed, there are still plenty of antagonists and conspirators around to ensure another vitriolic multi page flame fest on the subject ....

Caribou's new record is pretty good. I heard he shares a profession with this VIllalobos guy. Pretty sure Bono is a part time musician too. I wonder if they use Macs or PC's. Probably both.

hoffman2k wrote:

nigel1 wrote:

leedsquietman wrote:Not a rare breed mate, but a studio engineer who bothered to learn more than Pro Tools and Logic, I'm certified in both of those for working purposes, although this in itself doesn't mean that much but 8 years using those 2 systems at work plus Live and Cubase (which I was using since the Atari ST days) at home adds up to a decent knowledge of those systems) and yes, over the course of several years spent more time tweaking and twiddling sh*t and getting geeky with software for others and self than enjoying making his own music, that part is correct ! Then again, recording and engineering is a passion as valid as being a musician or a DJ.

I apologize if I seem like I was shouting off the lip but the magazine article (which maybe took things out of context, or edited your comments, or whatever) does SEEM to make a bold claim that you regard Live as basically fine for Live use or composition, but isn't serious enough to mix down with - I don't know if this is what you intended, but this is how it reads to some people. Maybe you can clarify this to pre-empt others making generalizations or misinformation ?

I get where you're coming from re the Nuendo mixer and some of the plugins, I really do - However, Live is fine for mixing down, the quality of the mix comes from the skill of the operator regardless of which system you use. That one system gets you from A to B quicker I get, this is not the same though as suggesting system A is good, system B is not - which some people will interpret as the message. Maybe you can set us straight?

sure...respects then...here we go...go find some 15" monitors ala jbl 4430's(only way you'll hear what bothers me), get a kick with a nice big bunch of 40hz and some decay then a/b live's rendering of just the kick(it sounds just a hair thinner and more click in the attack than the original kinda plastic sounding for lack of a better term) and let's for argument sake say N5's rendering(which sounds a tad fuller and more like the original midi vst plugs sound) It's there...trust me...you just won't hear it with regular 8" monitors...it only reveals itself in the extreme low end. This is what we all talk about and since i deal mainly in low end all day...this is a huge arrrgh for me.

df

What is the warping setting and did you turn the clip fade button off?
Or did you load up the sample in an instrument?

warping is off...clip fades off. High quality tried with both modes on and off. No other audio effect plug ins. Fader at 0. Tried the test with Guru, BPM, Maschine and Mach 5. Also just tried it with dragging the sample onto the audio track.
Some more tests were done with using my Anamod ATS-1 (using the 351 card and gp9 tape) and Telefunken V72's using the on-board custom DI's as Live external instruments through my IZ ADA Nyquist converter in both DAW's thinking I could somehow get rid of that "feature" in live by running it through some non-linear analog gesr. While it did result in a better and closer resolution to what i was after and used to..it still was making me work harder for the result. The thing is...it's only the low end that's weird...the high end in live to me is better than it is in N5. lol. Again it's subjective but I "believe" it is there...and it only shows itself on large speakers that can reproduce down into the 40' and 30's hence all the producer/dj types who play out on huge systems complaining that they can tell a record was made on Live. It's sort of it's signature sound - that low end plastic-iness.

leedsquietman wrote:Appreciate the response Dennis, thanks for the reply and sorry for coming off as bit of a c**t.

I have officially banned myself from getting in any more 'audio quality' threads here and Gearslutz, not good for my blood pressure or karma Fear not fellow travellers, next time this topic is discussed, there are still plenty of antagonists and conspirators around to ensure another vitriolic multi page flame fest on the subject ....

lol no probs and I do understand. It's not like I don't love this thing...I also wind up defending it. If you get a chance at getting a crack at it with those big monitors...A/B it and then let me know. I very well could be hearing things and it's all a figment of my imagination.

df

nigel1 wrote:

hoffman2k wrote: What is the warping setting and did you turn the clip fade button off?
Or did you load up the sample in an instrument?

warping is off...clip fades off. High quality tried with both modes on and off. No other audio effect plug ins. Fader at 0. Tried the test with Guru, BPM, Maschine and Mach 5. Also just tried it with dragging the sample onto the audio track.
Some more tests were done with using my Anamod ATS-1 (using the 351 card and gp9 tape) and Telefunken V72's using the on-board custom DI's as Live external instruments through my IZ ADA Nyquist converter in both DAW's thinking I could somehow get rid of that "feature" in live by running it through some non-linear analog gesr. While it did result in a better and closer resolution to what i was after and used to..it still was making me work harder for the result. The thing is...it's only the low end that's weird...the high end in live to me is better than it is in N5. lol. Again it's subjective but I "believe" it is there...and it only shows itself on large speakers that can reproduce down into the 40' and 30's hence all the producer/dj types who play out on huge systems complaining that they can tell a record was made on Live. It's sort of it's signature sound - that low end plastic-iness.

Who can really argue against what you believe? There seem to be plenty "engineers" and other bright bulbs that have tested these things. I'm kinda surprised we don't hear them more with specifics.
I also never encountered a conversation where plugin developers have to explain to their customers why their plugin sounds different in various DAWs.
If a different set of speakers can show the problem, the problem should be measurable.
It also open up another possibility. Maybe your audio drivers don't work 100% with Live. (which would be weird)
A null-test with renders from 2 DAWs wouldn't reveal that. Instead of rendering, I'd try recording into an external recorder. If the files null, then you ruled out any soundcard and driver issues.

Another test could be some extreme filtering with a 3rd party EQ which will load in both Live and Nuendo.
Maybe by chopping off everything above 100Hz, it'll be clearer what is going on in the low end when checking it with a Spectrum analyzer or just overlapping the waveforms.

I'm not suggesting you should bother with any of the above. But personally I'd want to know if any differences I hear are placebo effects or actual artifacts.
There have been enough audio quality threads on this and other forums to put the subject to rest. But then again, not every scenario could possibly have been tested, so you could always be thinking/knowing that something is wrong. Until you know for sure otherwise.
If there is a difference and you are able to pin it down somehow. Then it means you discovered a new method of testing that trumps the null tests that is usually the result of similar discussions.
Unfortunately, hooking up a different set of specific speakers isn't an option for everybody.
But with the spec charts of the 2 different sets of speakers you use, it may be apparent where the problem lies.
It should definitely help to narrow down the frequency range to test in.

A little fuel to this fire:


I can hear a record that was produced in LIVE. I know it. I hear it. LIVE is the only DAW that I recognize. This is not good or bad. Just a fact.


Carry on.

just been catching up on this thread starting from 2 or 3 pages back.

i spotted something(one) i'd hope i'd never see again. oh well.

i just did a session parallel recorded in live and logic.. 16 tracks just unity level in and out..

cant help me.. the logic version sound so natural and transparent against the live version.. hope its just the mix engine and not the audiofiles itself..


strange.. .. the only thing that can go wrong here is that abletons interface is sending digital to the logic interface where its directly routed to the monitors...

maybe it was anozther occurance of brown henke dither... theoretical the recordings should be identical... except the length..

i am to lazy to swap this around just for test pruposes.. but i will do eventually for final mix down..
what i will do defently in logic.. just in case...

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like a towel removed from the speakers

3phase wrote:brown henke dither