Unintended Consequences: Swiss Edition

[Steve Ballmer]

How come only two people died in the October revolution of 1917 when the Bolsheviks took power?

You seem proud that your comrades killed two people.

[Machinesworking]

What point are you trying to make here? Are we supposed to not want quality skies? Do you really believe that we'd live in a better society if everybody had shitty skies? Know what, I'm sold. I hereby revise my stance and henceforth will support MORE government intervention for a decrease in ski quality. Because ethics.

The point is simple, the scarcity model is outdated, humans are running on tribal fear. Quality skies isn't the point, it's that we consume and fear without need, it's a scarcity model run on want. It's waste based on a demand that has no need. This isn't an observation that can be answered by more or less government intervention, but it drives the desire for less intervention for sure.

[Machinesworking]

Well it's possible he's talking about private cops, which is IMO insane.

[Steve Ballmer]

What point are you trying to make here? Are we supposed to not want quality skies? Do you really believe that we'd live in a better society if everybody had shitty skies? Know what, I'm sold. I hereby revise my stance and henceforth will support MORE government intervention for a decrease in ski quality. Because ethics.

The point is simple, the scarcity model is outdated, humans are running on tribal fear. Quality skies isn't the point, it's that we consume and fear without need, it's a scarcity model run on want. It's waste based on a demand that has no need. This isn't an observation that can be answered by more or less government intervention, but it drives the desire for less intervention for sure.

So you're saying that politicians use our fears to... contract their powers? Something just seems a little off about that.

[Steve Ballmer]

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

And by that he meant mass murder did he?

Is not seizing someone's land a declaration of war? I guess then that Hitler's occupation of Poland was a just a military exercise... Or perhaps an outing with the boy scouts? Either way, ENGLAND OVERREACTED.

I'm being sarcastic.

[Machinesworking]

So you're saying that politicians use our fears to... contract their powers? Something just seems a little off about that.

Where did you get politicians in that equation? I said the political stance of smaller government is of course driven by the scarcity model.
I didn't mention what drives people towards larger invasive governments, and we both know the answer to that would be obvious, wage disparity, fear of outside threat (terrorists, communists, capitalists etc.), and fear of chaos. Not every political question can be answered by it's direct opposite. For instance I do not think for a moment that either you or Funken are somehow being obtuse, you simply have an opinion that a very strict political ideology is a superior choice.

I will say that I agree 100% with the notion of changing the system from within, revolution and murder might be fun, but it wreaks havoc on the family life.

[Steve Ballmer]

So you're saying that politicians use our fears to... contract their powers? Something just seems a little off about that.

Where did you get politicians in that equation? I said the political stance of smaller government is of course driven by the scarcity model.
I didn't mention what drives people towards larger invasive governments, and we both know the answer to that would be obvious, wage disparity, fear of outside threat (terrorists, communists, capitalists etc.), and fear of chaos. Not every political question can be answered by it's direct opposite. For instance I do not think for a moment that either you or Funken are somehow being obtuse, you simply have an opinion that a very strict political ideology is a superior choice.

I will say that I agree 100% with the notion of changing the system from within, revolution and murder might be fun, but it wreaks havoc on the family life.

Ok, so misunderstanding here. I believe we're not using "scarce" in the same way. From Wikipedia:

Scarcity is the fundamental economic problem of having seemingly unlimited human wants and needs in a world of limited resources.

Hence my objection to Funk's "there will be no greed" is "humans will always want more (especially in a socialist commonwealth, where they will have nothing)".

Do you disagree with this argument?

[Steve Ballmer]

I think 2 is a good number. Compare it to capitalist revolutions. How many died in the English Civil War, the French Revolution, the Dutch one, or the American one, which came in two parts (revolution and then civil war). How many died in the capitalist WW1 and WW2? Hundreds of millions have been killed by capitalism.

Fair enough. So how many deaths would make a bad number? How many people are you willing to kill?

[Steve Ballmer]

What gives individuals a right to own land anyway? How can a human own a chunk of the planet? Especially a big chunk they then rent out. The Bolsheviks took it off the lords and gave it to the peasants.

Gave it to the peasants... who had no right to own it? Lolz.

[Steve Ballmer]

Would I kill 2 people if it meant saving 2 million? Of course, if I had to, most people would. Wouldn't you? Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

Of course the capitalists don't worry about that, they kill hundreds of millions just to line their greedy pockets, without a care in the world.

Also, the only reason your revolution was relatively bloodless (well, for the first day or two ) is because the Winter Palace, which was "effectively unoccupied", was captured by accident when "a bunch of revolutionaries got lost". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution)

Of course, the official soviet version of the story pits Lenin against a battalion of trained women warriors. Because kicking girl ass is what makes Lenin a man.

[Steve Ballmer]

Are you saying that you would never undertake anything that carried any risk? Statistically, there is a chance of someone being killed building a hospital. Are you saying we therefore mustn't build hospitals?

No, I'm saying I would never initiate violence, knowing full well that people are going to be murdered, and then brag about defeating women.

[Steve Ballmer]

What gives individuals a right to own land anyway? How can a human own a chunk of the planet? Especially a big chunk they then rent out. The Bolsheviks took it off the lords and gave it to the peasants.

Gave it to the peasants... who had no right to own it? Lolz.

Not own it, be allowed to farm it rent-free.

To be permitted to exploit land, someone must first be in a position to grant that permission. That my dear is what we call and "owner". If your argument is that you cannot own land, then no crops could ever be grown. Maybe this is why so many people starved in the USSR.

[Steve Ballmer]

[Steve Ballmer]

The archival version shows that parties of Bolshevik operatives sent out from the Smolny by Lenin took over all critical centers of power in Petrograd in the early hours of the night without a shot being fired. In fact the effectively unoccupied Winter Palace also was taken bloodlessly by a small group which broke in, got lost in the cavernous interior, and accidentally happened upon the remnants of Kerensky's provisional government in the imperial family's breakfast room. The illiterate revolutionaries then compelled those arrested to write up their own arrest papers. The stories of the "defense of the Winter Palace" and the heroic "Storming of the Winter Palace" came later as the creative propaganda product of Bolshevik publicists. Grandiose paintings depicting the "Women's Battalion" and photo stills taken from Sergei Eisenstein's staged film depicting the "politically correct" version of the October events in Petrograd came to be taken as truth.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution)

Lolozlzozlzzozlzozzlzzz.

[Steve Ballmer]

Something tells me that your source is not as neutral as mine...

In any case, all this is beside the point. Storming a palace with a mob of armed illiterates is not what one would consider a non-violent solution.