Ableton Forum

I hope when you write "i support you" you mean of course "i share your values against war, racism, unjustice and exploitation". This, because I (as myrnova) do not need to be "supported", since these posts of mine are no "fight", "match" or similar, but just the simple way "we" (the rest of the world) see the U.S.A. The problem here is that most of the users are american "yankees", who of course cannot accept people like me (a "wop") dare to "spread hate" (they say) against their "beloved country". Here is the comparison with the Third Reich: I think they don't even realize the U.S.A. represents nowadays (together with Israel) a huge danger for the world. Of course things are more complex in terms of analysis and I can't express them in english as I could in italian, so be patient and don't come out claiming "hey but we have obama, who is even black and not a dictator". As if in the U.S.A. the masters were the politicians and not the capitalistic corporations and military industries. People in the U.S.A. are brainwashed by this "nationalistic" propaganda and there is no way to "wake up" them, alas. Like german people under Hitler's mind control. And they don't realize claiming "hey, but we have cool movies and great rock songs, we can say whatever we want against the system, we have frank zappa, chomsky and michael moore" does not mean they are "free". It just means the power knows well this is a good ILLUSION for people, totally harmless for the system. It is the new mass control.

Regarding my doubts about "freedom and democracy" in the U.S.A. (apart as said above the so-called wannabe "freedom of speech" excuse) I have good reasons. random examples: (1) they have death penalty, like in middleage; (2) they are scared of socialism (as every fascist dictatorship); (3) they haven't grown out of racism, yet. Maybe in "european-like" cities like boston, seattle, san francisco and part of NY... But, as far as I can see, in the rest of the "States" (rural, south etc.) things are stuck to the 50s, 60s. (4) as soon as some (little) riot happen, the police kill (usually black or hispanic people). (5) how comes the "land of freedom and democracy" has always supported fascist dictatorships (greece, spain, iran, chile, argentina, etc.)? I mean: ALWAYS. Sounds strange, huh? During the 60s, 70s and 80s here in Italy they put bombs in trains, cities etc. causing hundreds of victims and panic among population, because they (Kissinger, the CIA and such "good fellows") wanted Italy to become like greece (a military dictatorship). That is why most of italians don't trust U.S.A. that much, they know well what really U.S.A. are. (6) they have the same symbology and iconography "massive brainstorming" as the germans during the Third Reich (the flag, the anthem, children 3-4 y.o. brainwashed with stars and stripes in the kindergarden, american "cool" rockstars and "sexy" popstars who have to wear those ridiculous flag-dresses, the huge amount of war propaganda movies they produce every year with "heroes" and "superheroes" who fight for the U.S. etc.). (7) the fact they have always refused to help poor people, not only inside the nation, but outside, too (apart ridiculous and cheesy "U.S.A. for Africa" and selfpromotion star system's crap like that). (8) nowadays we can see the NSA spying everyone, not only there but european institutions, too. They are becoming paranoid against (inexistant) "terroists" and "U.S.A." enemies: typical dictatorship syndrome. (9) as we can see, Obama counts for nothing: as soon as he tries to change things they call him "socialist" or "the one who won't let people self defend with guns". If he did, he would be shot, as usual there (blaming the mafia, i guess?).

These were just a few points, I could write at least some hundreds more (about their banks, wall street, corporations, weapons, social health...)

myrnova wrote:I (as myrnova) do not need to be "supported"

That is why I say I support you, because it's 'not' needed.

It's difficult for me to explain other than I would rather see you banned than assimilated. By assimilation I mean becoming like everybody else, towing the line, being obedient, fear of authority, ignorant, etc. I'm sorry for the confusion.

(It was starting to read like an assimilation attempt on the thread where I first mentioned my 'support', I should have added 'even though it's not needed', apologies.)

We have both expressed our views, I think you are aware of where I stand.

Your views are your views, mine are mine, it's good this way.

Well, just realize writing "i support myrnova" is quite dangerous here currently. You are brave

myrnova wrote:Well, just realize writing "i support myrnova" is quite dangerous here currently. You are brave

I realise it all too well, it's why I laugh at people who think I'm about self preservation. After all, I'm riding a fucking bicycle with a fucking cello on it in Australia. Let's just say, in doing this, I am almost certainly risking my life every day.

krulecello wrote: ... although, I'm wondering if the proliferation of 'smart' devices will eventually see an evolutionary step backwards, via brain shrinkage (through non use), and perhaps the resulting smaller head size will negate the need for a backbone too.

I understand this fear, and I hear it a lot, but actually I think it goes the otehr way. I think it can work like that, but I think constant immediate access to information can increase intelligence because it means if you are curious about something then you can look it up right away. It might mean you are not storing lots of useless factoids around in your memory, but you are excercising the thinking part that thinks about connections between things, and actually I think we might actually be more likely to remember if we are feeding that curiosity at the moment when it is actually there. I think 20 years ago if I was curious about something and to check it our find out more I had to either go and find the encyclopedia that we had somewhere that might be 10 years old and out of date, or go to a library, then I would just not bother and forget about it. I think constant access to information has actually dramatically increased our intelligence, and conversations like this, internationally online are testament to that. Actually this is one area where I feel somewhat optimistic for this reason.

One thing I'm not sure about though is how far "transhumanism" will take this. People are already working in ernest to develop head gear that can unobtrusively go in a head band or hat that will allow you to operate your smart phone etc with thought. In the short term this might be a novelty, but you have to wonder where this will lead. Firstly, you will no doubt have to exercise a part of your brain in order to learn to use it - like muscle building - which I personally think could have unforseen (good) results, but that's another story, what it will mean is this fad of texting will probably be short lived.

What will it mean for humanity when communication becomes that instant and instead of sending a little smilie to try and convey the tone of what you are saying, they can get an actual image of your actual thoughts and emotions?

Take it 50-100 years further along and what will it mean for social interaction? Will people become so used to being interconnected with everyone that we start to co-operate more and are less divided? What if you have your special hat on and the normal thing to do is when you meet someone, instead of sending them a test message "business card" you instead send them an impression of yourself that people can feel directly.

I know this sounds way out and science fiction, but it's surprisingly close, and my point is I seriously doubt texting will be around long enough to have any actual physical effects... however, transhumanism, thought enhancing technology and brain augmentation could well once it happens because that might be more likely to last longer...

One thing is for certain - just as people from 1913 wouldn't recognize the world in 2013, we wouldn't regognize 2113, and it will probably be exponentially more different than 1913 to 2013 was.

Likewise, I think our only real hope for the environment is science and technology, and a lot of clever people are working on the problem

Those that wish to tell me (or think it privately) that my actions are a waste of time (although admirable) generally feel powerless (or nihilistic) because they have handed over their own personal responsibility to an external authority. How can someone who has done this ever understand the joy of true freedom? (rhetorical).

I don't see this as handing over personal responsibility to an external authority, to me it is more like mice watching on in despair while a herd of mammoths tears through the forest devouring everything in sight.

At the moment the super-rich basically have free reign to do what they like completely unaccountable because anyone who gets elected into office qickly becomes corrupted and/or discovers that they can't really do anything against them and this is why well meaning people run for office promising the world then get in and turn out to be massive disappointments - because the reality is far different to what they thought.

And to be fair, it's not just super rich who are possessed by greed. This obsession with industrial progress marches on because nobody ever seems to have enough. Like George W. Bush's famous "haves and have mores" speech in Farenheit 911 - there don't seem to be many "have enoughs".

And actually I've lived on or below the poverty line most of my life and am living proof that you can live on very little and in a system like this you can have a totally decent life with surprisingly little. I realise a lot of the comforts, including having this conversation on a computer on the internet are completely due the industrialized world, my point is that currently there seems to be no limits on greed. People who have billions use their billions to get more billions.

I'm not saying all billionaires are bad or do nothing to help either, I'm just saying given how little a person can live off to have a comfortable life, then at some point we should try and ensure that 2 conditions are met:

1. that everyone has a right to a comfortable life, and
2. everything we do needs to consider the impact on the environment and people's well being.

It really wouldn't take that much actually. Then once those conditions are met, they can earn as much money as they like. it would naturally put limits on the kind of unchecked greed that exists now, but people would just have to deal with it. People should maybe start dealing with the concept of "enough".

But at the moment banks and corporations enjoy a kind of privileged anarchy where they do whatever they like regardless of who it affects or how much damage it does in the state sanctioned pursuit of more, more, more. This unchecked lust for more is what's killing the planet and ruining people's lives.

So to me, the challenge is as an international community to figure out how to reign this in and make sure every business action is ethical GLOBALLY. Seeing as they can make their money globally, their ethical responsibilities should also be global.

But at the moment these people possessed by greed are using national armies and weapons to expand their search for more, killing as many people as they like.

No doubt about it, the world is simply insane.

But you know, it's even simpler - this current state of things is a kind of neo-feudalism. Stripped back to it's simplest form, it is the school bully stealing the other kids' lunch money. or even further, the alpha chimp beating up the other threats to his dominance. It has always worked like this. There is always an alpha who lives at the expence of the others. It's only that now we are "civilizing" more and more we start to understand this nature of power and feel like there is a better way, but that means challenging the most basic and primal tendencies for the more bold and ambitious to dominate, because we are getting more intelligent overall and realize now that we can all have enough and nobody needs to go without so that a small few can have more than they could need in several lifetimes.

myrnova wrote:I hope when you write "i support you" you mean of course "i share your values against war, racism, unjustice and exploitation". This, because I (as myrnova) do not need to be "supported", since these posts of mine are no "fight", "match" or similar, but just the simple way "we" (the rest of the world) see the U.S.A. The problem here is that most of the users are american "yankees", who of course cannot accept people like me (a "wop") dare to "spread hate" (they say) against their "beloved country". Here is the comparison with the Third Reich: I think they don't even realize the U.S.A. represents nowadays (together with Israel) a huge danger for the world. Of course things are more complex in terms of analysis and I can't express them in english as I could in italian, so be patient and don't come out claiming "hey but we have obama, who is even black and not a dictator". As if in the U.S.A. the masters were the politicians and not the capitalistic corporations and military industries. People in the U.S.A. are brainwashed by this "nationalistic" propaganda and there is no way to "wake up" them, alas. Like german people under Hitler's mind control. And they don't realize claiming "hey, but we have cool movies and great rock songs, we can say whatever we want against the system, we have frank zappa, chomsky and michael moore" does not mean they are "free". It just means the power knows well this is a good ILLUSION for people, totally harmless for the system. It is the new mass control.

Regarding my doubts about "freedom and democracy" in the U.S.A. (apart as said above the so-called wannabe "freedom of speech" excuse) I have good reasons. random examples: (1) they have death penalty, like in middleage; (2) they are scared of socialism (as every fascist dictatorship); (3) they haven't grown out of racism, yet. Maybe in "european-like" cities like boston, seattle, san francisco and part of NY... But, as far as I can see, in the rest of the "States" (rural, south etc.) things are stuck to the 50s, 60s. (4) as soon as some (little) riot happen, the police kill (usually black or hispanic people). (5) how comes the "land of freedom and democracy" has always supported fascist dictatorships (greece, spain, iran, chile, argentina, etc.)? I mean: ALWAYS. Sounds strange, huh? During the 60s, 70s and 80s here in Italy they put bombs in trains, cities etc. causing hundreds of victims and panic among population, because they (Kissinger, the CIA and such "good fellows") wanted Italy to become like greece (a military dictatorship). That is why most of italians don't trust U.S.A. that much, they know well what really U.S.A. are. (6) they have the same symbology and iconography "massive brainstorming" as the germans during the Third Reich (the flag, the anthem, children 3-4 y.o. brainwashed with stars and stripes in the kindergarden, american "cool" rockstars and "sexy" popstars who have to wear those ridiculous flag-dresses, the huge amount of war propaganda movies they produce every year with "heroes" and "superheroes" who fight for the U.S. etc.). (7) the fact they have always refused to help poor people, not only inside the nation, but outside, too (apart ridiculous and cheesy "U.S.A. for Africa" and selfpromotion star system's crap like that). (8) nowadays we can see the NSA spying everyone, not only there but european institutions, too. They are becoming paranoid against (inexistant) "terroists" and "U.S.A." enemies: typical dictatorship syndrome. (9) as we can see, Obama counts for nothing: as soon as he tries to change things they call him "socialist" or "the one who won't let people self defend with guns". If he did, he would be shot, as usual there (blaming the mafia, i guess?).

These were just a few points, I could write at least some hundreds more (about their banks, wall street, corporations, weapons, social health...)

myrnova, you are right with some of what you say here and actually I would rather not see you banned. This is why I kept arguing with you and trying to get you to be more diplomatic. I actually think a big misunderstanding has happened here, and I think it has built up over time.

I actualy had a look last night at some of the recent threads to work out why everyone was getting so angry and I actually couldn't actually find it and I can't actually remember when it was. So I think this has accumulated over time.

I think there actually is a translation issue, as well as regular people who know each other here speaking in a familiar way. I think maybe sometimes when people are being ironic or sarcastic you might think they are meaning it literally. I saw a few posts where people were kind of making a joke, and if you didn't speak the language and took it literally it might sound really bad. People who know each other and are here every day know when the other is making a joke, but an outsider might not.

So sometimes maybe you then start off talking about brainwashed Americans again — they think you are just saying it for no reason other than you hate all Americans, when maybe you are saying it because you saw something you didn't realize was ironic or sarcastic and think they are being true to this idea you have of brainwashed hitler youth when actually they are making fun of it in a subtle way that maybe only people who know them would recognize.

I totally get what you are saying. But I don't think most of the regular guys here are your enemy and they got your message a long time ago and have been also very critical of US govt. policy for a long time.

The only thing I think that maybe they are guilty of as Americans is the same as all of us native English speakers and not having the perspective to realise how things can sound to someone who is translating and trying to understand.


I guess I just want to be peacemaker.

myrnova wrote:[

Or... I don't know... listen to songs like DCD "amnesia" or such... always useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62x9jmkozqs

I love DCD!

... through all the arbitrary rationale concerning liberty,
Freedom, I must say,
Exists within unconditioned minds.

How can you be satisfied with things the way they are,
When all that surrounds us now, and so much more,
Remains inside the keeper's dark embrace?
The insatiable thirst for power has made
Idols out of mortals, gods into clay,
Soldiers into heros, children into slaves,
All damned desires, their hopes betrayed...

etc. etc. (DCD "Indoctrination")
Good old real gothic masterpiece...



this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7scQuPhYcBA
is quite emblematic and "self-explanatory" regarding DCD actual ideology. The fact is that in those days we (the goth fans ) had no internet, youtube etc. so we had to listen well to words, meanings, metaphors, allegories, images etc. All we had were some independent "import labels records" little shops and some underground fanzines. Meanings, messages and music in itself were important. Nowadays everything, expecially music, is quite "disposable", i doubt young people would listen 10-20-30-100 times a single song and/or album. Those were the days, in my opinion. Nowadays it's just "wow, cool", very superficial listening or smth. Nothing else.

Forge. wrote:

krulecello wrote: ... although, I'm wondering if the proliferation of 'smart' devices will eventually see an evolutionary step backwards, via brain shrinkage (through non use), and perhaps the resulting smaller head size will negate the need for a backbone too.

I understand this fear, and I hear it a lot, but actually I think it goes the otehr way. I think it can work like that, but I think constant immediate access to information can increase intelligence because it means if you are curious about something then you can look it up right away. It might mean you are not storing lots of useless factoids around in your memory, but you are excercising the thinking part that thinks about connections between things, and actually I think we might actually be more likely to remember if we are feeding that curiosity at the moment when it is actually there. I think 20 years ago if I was curious about something and to check it our find out more I had to either go and find the encyclopedia that we had somewhere that might be 10 years old and out of date, or go to a library, then I would just not bother and forget about it. I think constant access to information has actually dramatically increased our intelligence, and conversations like this, internationally online are testament to that. Actually this is one area where I feel somewhat optimistic for this reason.

One thing I'm not sure about though is how far "transhumanism" will take this. People are already working in ernest to develop head gear that can unobtrusively go in a head band or hat that will allow you to operate your smart phone etc with thought. In the short term this might be a novelty, but you have to wonder where this will lead. Firstly, you will no doubt have to exercise a part of your brain in order to learn to use it - like muscle building - which I personally think could have unforseen (good) results, but that's another story, what it will mean is this fad of texting will probably be short lived.

What will it mean for humanity when communication becomes that instant and instead of sending a little smilie to try and convey the tone of what you are saying, they can get an actual image of your actual thoughts and emotions?

Take it 50-100 years further along and what will it mean for social interaction? Will people become so used to being interconnected with everyone that we start to co-operate more and are less divided? What if you have your special hat on and the normal thing to do is when you meet someone, instead of sending them a test message "business card" you instead send them an impression of yourself that people can feel directly.

I know this sounds way out and science fiction, but it's surprisingly close, and my point is I seriously doubt texting will be around long enough to have any actual physical effects... however, transhumanism, thought enhancing technology and brain augmentation could well once it happens because that might be more likely to last longer...

One thing is for certain - just as people from 1913 wouldn't recognize the world in 2013, we wouldn't regognize 2113, and it will probably be exponentially more different than 1913 to 2013 was.

Likewise, I think our only real hope for the environment is science and technology, and a lot of clever people are working on the problem

Those that wish to tell me (or think it privately) that my actions are a waste of time (although admirable) generally feel powerless (or nihilistic) because they have handed over their own personal responsibility to an external authority. How can someone who has done this ever understand the joy of true freedom? (rhetorical).

I don't see this as handing over personal responsibility to an external authority, to me it is more like mice watching on in despair while a herd of mammoths tears through the forest devouring everything in sight.

At the moment the super-rich basically have free reign to do what they like completely unaccountable because anyone who gets elected into office qickly becomes corrupted and/or discovers that they can't really do anything against them and this is why well meaning people run for office promising the world then get in and turn out to be massive disappointments - because the reality is far different to what they thought.

And to be fair, it's not just super rich who are possessed by greed. This obsession with industrial progress marches on because nobody ever seems to have enough. Like George W. Bush's famous "haves and have mores" speech in Farenheit 911 - there don't seem to be many "have enoughs".

And actually I've lived on or below the poverty line most of my life and am living proof that you can live on very little and in a system like this you can have a totally decent life with surprisingly little. I realise a lot of the comforts, including having this conversation on a computer on the internet are completely due the industrialized world, my point is that currently there seems to be no limits on greed. People who have billions use their billions to get more billions.

I'm not saying all billionaires are bad or do nothing to help either, I'm just saying given how little a person can live off to have a comfortable life, then at some point we should try and ensure that 2 conditions are met:

1. that everyone has a right to a comfortable life, and
2. everything we do needs to consider the impact on the environment and people's well being.

It really wouldn't take that much actually. Then once those conditions are met, they can earn as much money as they like. it would naturally put limits on the kind of unchecked greed that exists now, but people would just have to deal with it. People should maybe start dealing with the concept of "enough".

But at the moment banks and corporations enjoy a kind of privileged anarchy where they do whatever they like regardless of who it affects or how much damage it does in the state sanctioned pursuit of more, more, more. This unchecked lust for more is what's killing the planet and ruining people's lives.

So to me, the challenge is as an international community to figure out how to reign this in and make sure every business action is ethical GLOBALLY. Seeing as they can make their money globally, their ethical responsibilities should also be global.

But at the moment these people possessed by greed are using national armies and weapons to expand their search for more, killing as many people as they like.

No doubt about it, the world is simply insane.

But you know, it's even simpler - this current state of things is a kind of neo-feudalism. Stripped back to it's simplest form, it is the school bully stealing the other kids' lunch money. or even further, the alpha chimp beating up the other threats to his dominance. It has always worked like this. There is always an alpha who lives at the expence of the others. It's only that now we are "civilizing" more and more we start to understand this nature of power and feel like there is a better way, but that means challenging the most basic and primal tendencies for the more bold and ambitious to dominate, because we are getting more intelligent overall and realize now that we can all have enough and nobody needs to go without so that a small few can have more than they could need in several lifetimes.

Hi Forge,

I just wanted to let you know that I have taken the time to read your thoughts above and to contemplate my reply. I certainly appreciate the effort that you've put into writing it and you make some very good points. I have a different view to you, but then I've read different books, met different people and been challenged in different ways. For example, the book I'm reading at the moment has a very different take on all that you have mentioned.

There is a very nice quote from a Spanish poet that you may like (well, I certainly do ) :
"Walker, there is no path, the path is made by walking."

For your amusement or dismay, there's been a campaign in Melbourne recently that has primarily been aimed at people using smart devices (texting, listening to music, etc). Unfortunately people now need reminding that it's not a good idea to step into the path of a moving tram!!



All the best with your music endeavours and following your passion!!

Funk N. Furter wrote:yeah but surely rhinos are skilled skate boarders

It's the 'non' authoritarian approach. No authority, no rebellion.

Indeed.

They are very cleaver, they understand human motivation very well.

I have heard rumors that they are working on an App that will use existing 'smart' technology to track your movements, and that of the Tram, so as to send you an 'alert', not an 'alarm', in the event that you forget that Rhino's Ride Skateboards, or something to that effect.

Of course, they realise that it will eventually be necessary to get rid of Rhino's all together, in the best interests of the people.
(Which is completely rational, IMHO)

kind of poor timing though really considering a west african rhino was just declared extinct

Then my timing is perfect, despite being a cellist.

I didn't mean you - I meant the campaign

or was that just an excuse to make a muso joke?