Ableton Forum

Dont team up against 9v, he has the right of the terror to distribute gibberish.

Thats a basic right only he has. We are not allowed to react.

The world upside down.

9V wrote:IMO only MIDI tracks can be considered "music" in a sequencer. Audio tracks are not music, but sound.

1: I record guitar playing into Live
2: I randomly slam my hands on a midi controller

apparently guitar playing (#1) is is only sound
meanwhile - the random MIDI hand slamming of #2 is music.

because "only MIDI tracks can be considered "music" in a sequencer"
the mind of a madman

Now, I listen to the recording of Antonio Vivaldi - Guitar Concerto in D, apparently I am only listening to sound. not music. apparently "music" must be made in midi.
Apparently music is determined not as an "ordering of tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity "
but as "midi tracks"

I look forward to hearing 9v's "music"
[unwatched youtube link][emoticon][gibberish about italy][frank zappa]

Angstrom wrote:I look forward to hearing 9v's "music"

He is such a purist that he cannot bounce his midi tracks, so we'll only have to look at miditracks. And the moment we look at his miditracks, its not music anymore.

Sunsetter wrote:So ur saying if you draw the notes and make a MIDI sequence and then save it and use that MIDI information in an arrangement, it's not music because it's not being created live.

in this case it is still music, because MIDI is "alive" information, while AUDIO is a "dead" reflection of music, not music in itself. AUDIO is music only when comes out from music IN REAL TIME (while playing an instrument). As soon as it is recorded it becomes sound. MIDI remains music, either while playing in real time or as information (because of the silent dynamic code).

Angstrom wrote: 1: I record guitar playing into Live
2: I randomly slam my hands on a midi controller

apparently guitar playing (#1) is is only sound
meanwhile - the random MIDI hand slamming of #2 is music.

because "only MIDI tracks can be considered "music" in a sequencer"
the mind of a madman

Now, I listen to the recording of Antonio Vivaldi - Guitar Concerto in D, apparently I am only listening to sound. not music. apparently "music" must be made in midi.

it is not that difficult: when you record guitar you play music (in real time you are making music). The recorded result of your playing becomes SOUND. It is not music: it WAS music. You cannot edit it with musical parameters anymore, only with sound parameters (sound engineering). when you record or write via MIDI you are playing/writing music. It remains music even when recorded, because of the code (you can still edit it with musical parametes). But music has RULES, if you don't respect them you are not making music, but random notes.

So: if you take that vivaldi mp3 and you put it in an audio track you are not making music, but playing with sound. If you try to play it with midi, or put its midifile on a midi track, you are making music, because it remains music (as a code, not because of its sound).

rote fahne wrote:

Angstrom wrote:I look forward to hearing 9v's "music"

He is such a purist that he cannot bounce his midi tracks, so we'll only have to look at miditracks. And the moment we look at his miditracks, its not music anymore.

of course i know the common sense definition of "music", and what listeners call "music" (concerts, mp3, cd etc.). But here i mean "music" for musicians (composers). What can be still called "music" for the composer, using a sequencer. Not the result of music... that is for listeners, not for musicians. For me, as a musician, only midi tracks are "music" in a sequencer. For you, as a listener, this is not important, you can consider "music" the audio tracks, too (because they "sound like music" in a common sense perception).

Melodynes new(ish) chord detector must muddy these much debated waters.

...And maybe drumagog.

(And of course how you use them.)

----------------------------------------------------

What if you record all your tracks with real instruments (just a dead copy) then re-sample the lot and have (lovely live) midi trigger it?


Mud, muddy mud.

The English language has bare apologies to make for the problems and miss-understandings it causes!

They're all laughing at our expense at Oxford Uni right now. Smug literary bastards and they're duplicitous verbage.

Guff Tong wrote:What if you record all your tracks with real instruments (just a dead copy) then re-sample the lot and have (lovely live) midi trigger it?

they turn back, become music coded (it is what i do with audio material, actually ). Because they now can be edited with midi/music parameters.

Playing music, by your basic definition can mean making and listening at the same time.

Thats the confusion right there.

no wonder you have a strong view point. You are expecting english to be a science when it is unfortunately not.

With the english language there are some bent/twisted rules for various contexts that only occur occasionally.

This is one of them.

You the musician, have one context. The listener, another.

I wont bore you with the double words and meaning we have though you will find many on the internet.

I,m gonna learn mandarin I think, see how that goes...
This debate many not even exist in mandarin....

9V wrote:

Guff Tong wrote:What if you record all your tracks with real instruments (just a dead copy) then re-sample the lot and have (lovely live) midi trigger it?

they turn back, become music coded (it is what i do with audio material, actually ). Because they now can be edited with midi/music parameters.

mate, give the eye rolling a rest. it means something very rude in my region and I take GREAT offence. thank you.

reason: you eye roll at and idea, random video etc...: no offence taken.

You eye roll directly at me: offensive.

cheers.

look: playing music in real time is music because there is a key element in music: TIME. The element of time is very important. When you use an instrument to play music, music is not the sound of the instrument, but the idea expressed by the composer. The music instrument is a TOOL, not music. Music is BEFORE (in the composer mind) or TOGETHER with it (when the performer plays it in real time). That is why music is not sound, but the code. And MIDI contains music codes. AUDIO only sound parameters. For the listener this is not an important issue. Only for the musician,

Sorry for the eye roll, it was not meant to be offensive, it was like: "i realize i do that"

9V wrote:it is not that difficult: when you record guitar you play music (in real time you are making music). The recorded result of your playing becomes SOUND. It is not music: it WAS music. You cannot edit it with musical parameters anymore, only with sound parameters (sound engineering).

But the reality that you still will not concede is that composers for about 100 years now have used the musical parameter of timbre as an element in their compositions. Timbre cannot be directly edited with MIDI, but it remains a musical parameter because composers from Schoenberg forward have manipulated it as such. This is where your opinion fails to take into account musical history and compositional practice.

And then of course your argument to this has been "You're going to far! I'm talking about popular music! I'm talking about 'tonal' music!" Well, I'm not. And what I'm talking about is still music, music that uses the musical parameter of timbre in addition to pitch, duration, and dynamic.

i am talking of tonal music, actually. Because 100% of musicians use tonal rules. And MIDI, vst, DAWs and 99,9% of music is related with tonal codes: harmony, melody, rhythm, time and intervals. The rest i don't know, and has nothing to do with composing music in a sequencer, i guess.

9V wrote:look: playing music in real time is music because there is a key element in music: TIME. The element of time is very important. When you use an instrument to play music, music it is not the sound of the instrument, but the idea expressed by the composer. The music instrument is a TOOL, not music. Music is BEFORE (in the composer mind) or TOGETHER with it (when the performer plays it in real time). That is why music is not sound, but the code. And MIDI contains music codes. AUDIO only sound parameters.

Sorry for the eye roll, it was not meant to be offensive, it was like: "i realize i do that"

If music is the code, both midi AND audio are the manifestions of the code.

If the musical parameters could not be in the audio, they could not be heard.

I think you lack basic knowledge like venn diagrams, because suddenly in audio for you there is only audio enginering parameters.

Hilaric.

If you play me a tune I can sing it back to you - so musical information has been exchanged - It can't be lost else how can I extract it and sing it back?