Climate Change & Einstein's - You cannot solve a problem ...

[krulecello]

Fuck that, seems to me like not bothering because "it's hopeless" or "no else cares" is missing the point.
That's as passive as having hope.
Relying on and waiting for better technology isn't going to cut it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFnpCVyTJXQ

Thanks Shadx. You seem understand the point! (The link doesn't cut it though, IMO) So, would you like to try and explain it to the others?? (I like looping, but not this kind.)

[krulecello]

Meanwhile, here is some music and a vid relevant to the topic...great new song by David Bridie ...watch for the dramatic ending!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgYe5ixQa-s

P.S. There is a Cellist on the album Wake from which this song comes (Helen Mountfort on cello)

Thanks for the link Earthloop. I agree with the sentiment of the song, in questioning 'what if' we all felt as passionate about the world, life and freedom as the Tibetan Monks feel about freeing Tibet (from Bridie's interview)? Would you like to elaborate as to why you posted it?

[krulecello]

geoengineering

http://io9.com/5959069/10-ways-to-stop- ... ngineering

http://www.geoengineering.ox.ac.uk/what ... gineering/

artificial trees
http://io9.com/5950271/could-artificial ... ing-crisis

So, you don't want to give up your car??

[Forge.]

geoengineering

http://io9.com/5959069/10-ways-to-stop- ... ngineering

http://www.geoengineering.ox.ac.uk/what ... gineering/

artificial trees
http://io9.com/5950271/could-artificial ... ing-crisis

So, you don't want to give up your car??

well, actually I was posting links that I saw on FB and they were relevant to the conversation, that doesn't mean I'm throwing my endorsement behind them specifically, although I do think it's going to get to the point where things like that are going to have to be seriously considered and implemented.

But no, I don't really, it gives me a lot more freedom than I would otherwise have, and it would be very difficult carrying gear around, but more to the point neither will several billion other people want to give up theirs so it seems a bit of a pointless exercise aimed at just making the person doing it feel better but not making any actual difference to the problem.

It's a nice idea, but be honest — do you really think enough people are going to join you to actually save the planet? You're talking about an extreme minority of people that would be prepared to do what you're suggesting.

And actually, I really don't mean to be critical of you specifically because I think you deserve respect for being prepared to make sacrifices, and it's good to raise awareness of how we can change our own actions in as many ways that we can to use energy more efficiently, but I can't help feeling this idea is even a little dangerous or irresponsible. Given billions of people simply won't give things like cars up then it's really important to keep the pressure up for the manufacturers to change to clean power as soon as possible, so taking the view that there is no alternative but to give them up completely is a totally wasted effort and more likely to make people shut off to the idea altogether and put it in the too hard basket.

People should be thinking about small changes— little and often— and I agree that using the car less if it's not needed is part of that, but this idea of getting rid of them altogether is just a total fantasy — it's just not going to happen in the real world, except for a small few really motivated people like yourself.

But lots of little things that add up can make a difference. As Seymour Garte said in that book I mentioned before, it wasn't that long ago people thought separating rubbish for recycling was too much to expect of people, but now we do it routinely. Simple changes like turning off unneeded lights and appliances, energy saver bulbs, not wasting water, even putting less in the kettle all are small things that can add up to big changes over a year, definitely over a lifetime.

[Forge.]

this is about the NSA thing, not the environment, but it is kind of relevant and relates to my point about the "too hard basket"

http://singularity-utopia.blogspot.com/ ... hange.html

I nearly gave it it's own thread but I honestly couldn't be arsed scrolling past the constant insults and shit stirring which a new thread entitled "are humans too stupid?" would no doubt attract.

[regretfullySaid]

I just remembered that tons of people quit smoking in the past 10 years. Why? The price quadrupled. So, there's that.

[Forge.]

I just remembered that tons of people quit smoking in the past 10 years. Why? The price quadrupled. So, there's that.

Well I can't speak for the US, but here and in the UK I think banning smoking in public places probably played a much bigger factor than cost

the stats in Qld where I live were something like at least 80% non-smokers. 20% sounds high actually, it seems all but wiped out now

you can't fairly make that comparison though. It's hard to argue any benefits at all for smoking, but there are many different reasons why cars make people's lives a lot easier...

[regretfullySaid]

banning smoking in public places probably played a much bigger factor than cost

Forgot about that too, maybe that is a bigger factor...

I dunno, I think there will be a lot less cars (in 100 years), reserved for certain necessary purposes/occupations, more tram infrastructure and still air support, but more for non-human transport (dropping goods), because inevitably the technology will have to change anyway, and for the better, I think it's more a question of when, but none of that will go away....

Whether I contribute or not, it isn't going to save the world, but that isn't the point, or wait, yes it is, at least I could pretend that it is and it still beats not doing anything.
Most people can still use a fraction of their free time time to work on lowering their footprint after working and dealing with family time/logistics, but some things are just out of their reach. There's always something that can be improved, though, and cost-effective solutions when it comes to home energy consumption.
It's still worth it to have a show-by-example foundation to instill in the kids like an ongoing family project, getting on instructables and making a solar furnace or something. A little can add up to a lot and at least there's some momentum going on.

I'd expect a lot less flying to happen because of the internet though. At least, some will contribute to not flying if the only is reason was for communication (business/family).

Maybe I'm naive but I'm optimistic either way. Options:

1. We continue down this path until the whole of humanity on Earth is gone, but everything is still here and Earth heals itself. It's all good.
2. Apocalypse, only a few (literally a few to a few hundred, or thousand) humans remain, proceed to 3.
3. We slowly make a recovery and there will still be humanity with it's wars and suffering but with a cool soundtrack. It's all good.
4. Man interrupts destroying the planet slowly by exploding it, nay, the SOLAR SYSTEM, with experimental weaponry, but the rest of the universe is still here. It's all good.

Then again I also think it's possible that we could evolve so much that the thought of war is just an obscene word and no one would resort to such savagery unless they have some sort of residual "21st century type of mental malady" triggered (if you subscribe to the thought that a large part of mental illness is just a byproduct of an unhealthy environment ie family/culture/lifestyle/etc). But that could be a short 300 years to a longer 3000 years from now, who knows? Maybe not.
Maybe we'll all just end up being like a giant foosball table being controlled by Coca-Cola and BP and we'll forget that we're human and other concepts such as freedom, freewill (maybe it doesn't exist), individualism, etc.
Well, that's the goal, right now, isn't it?

Personally if I had to choose between dying from fighting against a corporation built on world-domination or hiding behind a screen I think I'd choose the former. Most likely because it's easier to say.

Either way, I could die today or 40 or 100 years from now, and when I'm gone, life will still keep on truckin'. Or not. Either way, it's all good. But while I'm here I might as well make myself useful, and as long as I have an extra computer next to the one I mainly use, I can come on here at the same time.

Did I get off topic? My Bad. Haven't had breakfast yet. Need to walk to the store or cook some rice'n'veggies.

Concision is a mark of intelligence.

[earthloop]

Meanwhile, here is some music and a vid relevant to the topic...great new song by David Bridie ...watch for the dramatic ending!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgYe5ixQa-s

P.S. There is a Cellist on the album Wake from which this song comes (Helen Mountfort on cello)

Thanks for the link Earthloop. I agree with the sentiment of the song, in questioning 'what if' we all felt as passionate about the world, life and freedom as the Tibetan Monks feel about freeing Tibet (from Bridie's interview)? Would you like to elaborate as to why you posted it?

it's about saying "if you don't think a human life is worth anything then this won't bother you!"...

The song (and video) is not directly referential to the topic but it IS when you consider the impact climate change will have on many people who do not have the means to protect themselves from its effects. And the fact that this is happening NOW...not sometime in a mythical future. It is about not giving a shit because the problem is not yours at this moment!

It is about courage, and sacrifice in the name of the greater good.

It is, essentially, a metaphor!

[andydes]

I think the problem is with growth. Even the most left leaning countries rely on economic growth to sustain spending.

I remember briefly after the crash, our government tried to push the "mend and make do" thing. A return to post war thinking, because we'd all spent beyond our means.

The fuckwits didn't seem to understand that our economy was based on exactly that. So they don't mention it anymore, they just want things back the way they were.

A global economy based on constant growth is not only unsustainable for the environment, it's complete bollocks anyway.

It all needs a serious readjustment.

[krulecello]

Meanwhile, here is some music and a vid relevant to the topic...great new song by David Bridie ...watch for the dramatic ending!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgYe5ixQa-s

P.S. There is a Cellist on the album Wake from which this song comes (Helen Mountfort on cello)

Thanks for the link Earthloop. I agree with the sentiment of the song, in questioning 'what if' we all felt as passionate about the world, life and freedom as the Tibetan Monks feel about freeing Tibet (from Bridie's interview)? Would you like to elaborate as to why you posted it?

it's about saying "if you don't think a human life is worth anything then this won't bother you!"...

The song (and video) is not directly referential to the topic but it IS when you consider the impact climate change will have on many people who do not have the means to protect themselves from its effects. And the fact that this is happening NOW...not sometime in a mythical future. It is about not giving a shit because the problem is not yours at this moment!

It is about courage, and sacrifice in the name of the greater good.

It is, essentially, a metaphor!

Thanks for the clarification Earthloop. I wasn't moved by the clip like I was with the Dead Can Dance clip (mentioned earlier, which was more like a music documentary clip). Perhaps in order to convey such a message, like the one you are mentioning, you have to really believe in it yourself (you know, words matching actions, ect) and I don't get this sense from Bridie or the clip. I'm certainly not saying that Dead Can Dance are any different to Bridie, but when I see the documentary type images of the 'real' poor people in India sorting through piles of rubbish, etc, I 'feel' for these people, these beautiful people. They are the true victims of capitalism, of the way we live our lives.

Yes, the effects of Climate Change are happening now, in our lifetime. Living in regional Victoria for the past 7 years, managing my own off grid solar power station, growing much of my own food, talking with farmers about crop failures due to droughts, heat waves, floods and plagues (past 4 years)....life could certainly become very interesting, very soon.

[krulecello]

geoengineering

http://io9.com/5959069/10-ways-to-stop- ... ngineering

http://www.geoengineering.ox.ac.uk/what ... gineering/

artificial trees
http://io9.com/5950271/could-artificial ... ing-crisis

So, you don't want to give up your car??

well, actually I was posting links that I saw on FB and they were relevant to the conversation, that doesn't mean I'm throwing my endorsement behind them specifically, although I do think it's going to get to the point where things like that are going to have to be seriously considered and implemented.

But no, I don't really, it gives me a lot more freedom than I would otherwise have, and it would be very difficult carrying gear around, but more to the point neither will several billion other people want to give up theirs so it seems a bit of a pointless exercise aimed at just making the person doing it feel better but not making any actual difference to the problem.

It's a nice idea, but be honest — do you really think enough people are going to join you to actually save the planet? You're talking about an extreme minority of people that would be prepared to do what you're suggesting.

And actually, I really don't mean to be critical of you specifically because I think you deserve respect for being prepared to make sacrifices, and it's good to raise awareness of how we can change our own actions in as many ways that we can to use energy more efficiently, but I can't help feeling this idea is even a little dangerous or irresponsible. Given billions of people simply won't give things like cars up then it's really important to keep the pressure up for the manufacturers to change to clean power as soon as possible, so taking the view that there is no alternative but to give them up completely is a totally wasted effort and more likely to make people shut off to the idea altogether and put it in the too hard basket.

People should be thinking about small changes— little and often— and I agree that using the car less if it's not needed is part of that, but this idea of getting rid of them altogether is just a total fantasy — it's just not going to happen in the real world, except for a small few really motivated people like yourself.

But lots of little things that add up can make a difference. As Seymour Garte said in that book I mentioned before, it wasn't that long ago people thought separating rubbish for recycling was too much to expect of people, but now we do it routinely. Simple changes like turning off unneeded lights and appliances, energy saver bulbs, not wasting water, even putting less in the kettle all are small things that can add up to big changes over a year, definitely over a lifetime.

I'm not trying to save the planet, I am making a rational and therefore radical choice based on good factual information (the kind you are apparently not interested in). In doing so, my brain grows, I have more zest for life, more passion, more 'true' caring for others, I am without depression, without fear, I am not concerned with what others may think of me, or how I am perceived, because I am living life fully, consciously aware. (This is, of course, an ongoing non linear process.....I have not, and do not, expect to arrive.)

The reason several billion people will not give up their cars is because you wont, that is all. It's your limited thinking, reflected back to you in the way you see the world. Projections and deflections.

[andydes]

Krulecello,

I'm very impressed with what you're doing (not sarcasm, if it sounds that way).

But I assume you realise that not everyone can live that way. I have a flat in one of the world's busiest cities. I don't know how I could become self sufficient. And if it wasn't me living here, it would be someone else.

Any plan has to cater for this big urban society as well as people living out of it.

[earthloop]

Thanks for the link Earthloop. I agree with the sentiment of the song, in questioning 'what if' we all felt as passionate about the world, life and freedom as the Tibetan Monks feel about freeing Tibet (from Bridie's interview)? Would you like to elaborate as to why you posted it?

it's about saying "if you don't think a human life is worth anything then this won't bother you!"...

The song (and video) is not directly referential to the topic but it IS when you consider the impact climate change will have on many people who do not have the means to protect themselves from its effects. And the fact that this is happening NOW...not sometime in a mythical future. It is about not giving a shit because the problem is not yours at this moment!

It is about courage, and sacrifice in the name of the greater good.

It is, essentially, a metaphor!

Thanks for the clarification Earthloop. I wasn't moved by the clip like I was with the Dead Can Dance clip (mentioned earlier, which was more like a music documentary clip). Perhaps in order to convey such a message, like the one you are mentioning, you have to really believe in it yourself (you know, words matching actions, ect) and I don't get this sense from Bridie or the clip. I'm certainly not saying that Dead Can Dance are any different to Bridie, but when I see the documentary type images of the 'real' poor people in India sorting through piles of rubbish, etc, I 'feel' for these people, these beautiful people. They are the true victims of capitalism, of the way we live our lives.

Yes, the effects of Climate Change are happening now, in our lifetime. Living in regional Victoria for the past 7 years, managing my own off grid solar power station, growing much of my own food, talking with farmers about crop failures due to droughts, heat waves, floods and plagues (past 4 years)....life could certainly become very interesting, very soon.

Yeah, I agree with you about the DCD clip. It's just that I saw the Bridie clip the other night on Rage so it was up front in my mind.

Cool to see how you are living. Some friends and I are looking to buy some land to build some sustainable and affordable houses etc. I did my Honours in Sustainable Dev. in this exact area. I am working on developing a total on site essential services (water capture and treatment; sewage treatment, and energy production) plus...a reconstruction of the way we own the means of production of esential services (power, water,housing etc)

[regretfullySaid]

That's pretty cool krule, the lifestyle you got going.
I'm glad all the details are included on the "as builder" part of the site because I was curious about what water filter you used and what kind if fruit trees and veggies were growing.

But what is the 20% food requirements that are not provided, and what about herbs and spices?
Also, what are the critters you have to look out for or be careful of that can get on premises ie poisonous 2m spiders?