Updates from Afghanistan

[Machinesworking]

He so frekking staunchly stands by his ideology that not a shred of logic gets through because if he stops listening to that inner voice which is trying to justify his existence he will be a broken man who has to cry himself to sleep as a result of leaving his family to g to a warzone and earn money through bloodshed... it's quite a scary pill that even I'd be uncomfortable swallowing if I were in his shoes.

That's why people who come back from war are all messed up in the head, after a while some of them become disenfranchised and fall into a mental state of dispair when they return back to a normal way of life.

I wouldn't worry. He's a desk jockey. In fact I find it ironic that 99% of the time I hear about some rabid pro war staunch patriot type, he's doing office work. Like how people who really want to be cops end up security guards.
Basically he's just as rabid as the Al Qada types, but he can't see it at all. It was not even a question in my mind that he would assume you were muslim, and try to "enlighten" you.
Unfortunately they don't use 30 year old super patriots on the front lines, they use 19 year old kids. People like mbreqs are far too likely to go Rambo for the military.

I think people come back from war messed up because it's not the natural state of mankind. From accounts, bloody violent war is only a few thousand years old. Less than ten thousand years on a hundred thousand year at least run. People weren't engaging in war much pre large civilization. We are not meant to kill each other, it goes against basic species survival.

[jashic]

This conversation took a wrong turn as soon as he blamed an entire religion for being the problem. 1.3 Billion ppl.

But, I almost understand where he gets his ignorance. There are fundamentalists everywhere in almost any religion or political view. But, it was Islamic fundamentalists who attacked us. So, they must be the ones who are practicing the faulty religion and therefore, we Christians must rehabilitate them into goodness.

[M. Bréqs]

This conversation took a wrong turn as soon as he blamed an entire religion for being the problem. 1.3 Billion ppl.

But, I almost understand where he gets his ignorance. There are fundamentalists everywhere in almost any religion or political view. But, it was Islamic fundamentalists who attacked us. So, they must be the ones who are practicing the faulty religion and therefore, we Christians must rehabilitate them into goodness.

That's a strawman argument. I'm not a christian, and on other forums, I rail against christian fundamentalism.

The West (ie secular, liberal, pluralist democracy) has done more good for the planet than any other society. Sure it's done some bad, and I'll admit that; but it has done no worse than any other "great civilization" in terms of war, injustice, or tyrrany. However, it has done MUCH more good; the karmic balance sheet for Western Civilization ( ) is in the black.

Since some people feel the need to comment without actually reading all the posts here (and I admit that due to the rants of some, this thread is unduly long), I'll repost;

The West has extended the human lifespan.
The West created mass communication.
The West first emancipated women.
The West was the FIRST society to abolish slavery. Don't get your panties in a knot, every society has practiced slavery in its history. Despite what you might think, the American / African slave trade was not the only slavery that the world has ever seen.
The West reinstated democracy after a 2500 year absence.
The West pioneered the idea of religious tolerance. (And yes, I say this without a bit of irony).
The West was the first to recognize freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of the press.
I could go on, but I've got a time crunch, sorry.

Ultimately, all of these things came AFTER the West sloughed off the majority of Christian Dogma and adopted secularism. For Islam to succeed in the world as the West has, it too must shed the dogma that holds it back.

[M. Bréqs]

It was not even a question in my mind that he would assume you were muslim, and try to "enlighten" you.

Since 98% of Iranians are Muslim, and Sweetjesus previously wrote that he is from Iran, it's a safe assumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Demography

Further to that, he seemed offended when he was looking for a new handle, and I jokingly suggested "Mohammad Al Madhi, Life of the Party", to keep in the theme of using religious figures in his title. He seemed to have no problem calling himself after a Christian figure, but took offence that I suggested a muslim one. That's the second clue.

(yes, yes... Before you jump on this point, I am aware that Jesus, as Issa, is also a muslim figure; however, in terms of scale, Mohammad Al Madhi, as a messianic figure, is equal in prominence for Shia as Jesus is to christians. For muslims, Jesus is a fairly minor prophet in comparison to Mohammad or Mohammad Al Madhi for Shia)

He so frekking staunchly stands by his ideology that not a shred of logic gets through because if he stops listening to that inner voice which is trying to justify his existence he will be a broken man who has to cry himself to sleep as a result of leaving his family to g to a warzone and earn money through bloodshed... it's quite a scary pill that even I'd be uncomfortable swallowing if I were in his shoes.

Don't worry amigo. I'm okay with what I do. The money was only one of many reasons for me to deploy here. I actually do believe in my mission here. Maybe for a cynical individual, that's hard to understand, but I'm a man of principles who has full realization of what I do and what the consequences of my actions are; and I know, not just epistemologically, but also through personal experience, that I am making a positive contribution to the world.

Anyways, Sweetjesus, were you one of the 98% of Iranians who was born a muslim? Because if you were, and you're an agnostic now, I'm a little worried for you man. The Sharia penalty for Apostasy is death, and announcing that you're an apostate on the internet is a ballsy move.

So, if that's the case, you went up in my respect, just as a matter of guts and courage.

[pulsoc]

/munches popcorn

[jashic]

That's a strawman argument. I'm not a christian, and on other forums, I rail against christian fundamentalism.

It's only a strawman argument if I accused of you being Christian. When I say "we christians", I mean figuratively. I myself am not christian.

The West (ie secular, liberal, pluralist democracy) has done more good for the planet than any other society. Sure it's done some bad, and I'll admit that; but it has done no worse than any other "great civilization" in terms of war, injustice, or tyrrany. However, it has done MUCH more good; the karmic balance sheet for Western Civilization ( ) is in the black.

This is only a matter of opinion. For those who suffer under our tyranny and injustice, the balance looks much more the other way. And this is the exact point others are making in this thread and that you choose to ignore.

Whether the injustice is real or just perceived is irrelevant. That's the point. The outcome is the SAME.

In other words, if one believes that the west is the devil, whether the west IS the devil or not doesn't matter, until you change that person's mind.

Since some people feel the need to comment without actually reading all the posts here (and I admit that due to the rants of some, this thread is unduly long), I'll repost;

The West has extended the human lifespan.
The West created mass communication.
The West first emancipated women.
The West was the FIRST society to abolish slavery. Don't get your panties in a knot, every society has practiced slavery in its history. Despite what you might think, the American / African slave trade was not the only slavery that the world has ever seen.
The West reinstated democracy after a 2500 year absence.
The West pioneered the idea of religious tolerance. (And yes, I say this without a bit of irony).
The West was the first to recognize freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of the press.
I could go on, but I've got a time crunch, sorry.

Again, those who feel oppressed by the west do not care for such lists. They have their own lists and it shows a different West.

[sweetjesus]

It was not even a question in my mind that he would assume you were muslim, and try to "enlighten" you.

Since 98% of Iranians are Muslim, and Sweetjesus previously wrote that he is from Iran, it's a safe assumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Demography

Further to that, he seemed offended when he was looking for a new handle, and I jokingly suggested "Mohammad Al Madhi, Life of the Party", to keep in the theme of using religious figures in his title. He seemed to have no problem calling himself after a Christian figure, but took offence that I suggested a muslim one. That's the second clue.

(yes, yes... Before you jump on this point, I am aware that Jesus, as Issa, is also a muslim figure; however, in terms of scale, Mohammad Al Madhi, as a messianic figure, is equal in prominence for Shia as Jesus is to christians. For muslims, Jesus is a fairly minor prophet in comparison to Mohammad or Mohammad Al Madhi for Shia)

He so frekking staunchly stands by his ideology that not a shred of logic gets through because if he stops listening to that inner voice which is trying to justify his existence he will be a broken man who has to cry himself to sleep as a result of leaving his family to g to a warzone and earn money through bloodshed... it's quite a scary pill that even I'd be uncomfortable swallowing if I were in his shoes.

Don't worry amigo. I'm okay with what I do. The money was only one of many reasons for me to deploy here. I actually do believe in my mission here. Maybe for a cynical individual, that's hard to understand, but I'm a man of principles who has full realization of what I do and what the consequences of my actions are; and I know, not just epistemologically, but also through personal experience, that I am making a positive contribution to the world.

Anyways, Sweetjesus, were you one of the 98% of Iranians who was born a muslim? Because if you were, and you're an agnostic now, I'm a little worried for you man. The Sharia penalty for Apostasy is death, and announcing that you're an apostate on the internet is a ballsy move.

So, if that's the case, you went up in my respect, just as a matter of guts and courage.

Holy crap dude, get over yourself you're not a theologist or a person of wisdom, just a pawn for your commanding officer.

Don't dare call me amigo, because I am not your friend and could never imagine myself having a beer with you without wanting to tell you how much of a cock you are.

You don't sound as sure of yourself as you are of wikipedia, hate sites and pointing out of minority situations on behalf of the majority to give yourself comfort in your thoughts.

I don't wish bad upon people but I won't feel any love lost the day you write a manifesto stating how much wrong you contributed to.

p.s. you can't even respond to the most simple of facts presented to you that's how weak you are big man.

Except you try and do the only thing you and your brothers in arms are good at and that is spreading hate.

One thing though.. the world isn't buying the hate anymore. People have wised up to you and your kind and are now more concerned with spreading the message of love and good will instead of destruction and hatred.

[sweetjesus]

The West has extended the human lifespan.

built upon knowledge and science created by islam

The West created mass communication.

And used it to perpetuate propaganda and war

The West first emancipated women.

And treats them as sex objects in the mass communication they created

The West was the FIRST society to abolish slavery. Don't get your panties in a knot, every society has practiced slavery in its history. Despite what you might think, the American / African slave trade was not the only slavery that the world has ever seen.

it's just cheaper to outsource the slavery to china now that's all

The West reinstated democracy after a 2500 year absence.

and took it away from Iran

The West pioneered the idea of religious tolerance. (And yes, I say this without a bit of irony).

KKK

The West was the first to recognize freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of the press.

You speak as if the United States is representative of the entire western civilization.. shows your arrogance and ignorance.

I could go on, but I've got a time crunch, sorry.

More poppy to be grown eh bitch?

[M. Bréqs]

This is only a matter of opinion. For those who suffer under our tyranny and injustice, the balance looks much more the other way. And this is the exact point others are making in this thread and that you choose to ignore.

In most cases, the downtrodden of the world are suffering under the tyrrany and injustice of their own shitty leadership. Now, homelessness in the United States and so forth is certainly a problem with the West. But I don't think that the shit life that plagues the third world is exclusively the fault of the West. In fact, don't doubt for a moment that the world would be worse off if the West were to adopt a neo-isolationist policy. Where does international aid predominantly come from? What you think is bad now is nothing compared to a world without Western influence.

Whether the injustice is real or just perceived is irrelevant. That's the point. The outcome is the SAME.

In other words, if one believes that the west is the devil, whether the west IS the devil or not doesn't matter, until you change that person's mind.

If I understand you point correctly, you're saying that the truth is not important. If people want to buy into a bullshit blame-story about why they're suffering, then that's fine? I don't agree.

I do agree with you though when you said that they'll hate us until we can change that person's mind. The way we do that is through honest dialog about the West's contribution. But more than that, we must demonstrate our principles. Our actions must mirror our principles. We do that by trying to help the world, by increasing the standard of living of the poor, by driving away tyrrany, and offering them rationality as an alternative to ideological or religious dogma.

[M. Bréqs]

p.s. you can't even respond to the most simple of facts presented to you that's how weak you are big man.

I don't respond to everything you rant about because so much of what you write is utter shit, amigo.

[sweetjesus]

p.s. you can't even respond to the most simple of facts presented to you that's how weak you are big man.

I don't respond to everything you rant about because so much of what you write is utter shit, amigo.

is that all you got warlord?

sux when someone you can't pick on points out the truth to you.



enjoy the rest of your holiday.

[pulsoc]

I do agree with you though when you said that they'll hate us until we can change that person's mind. The way we do that is through honest dialog about the West's contribution. But more than that, we must demonstrate our principles. Our actions must mirror our principles. We do that by trying to help the world, by increasing the standard of living of the poor, by driving away tyrrany, and offering them rationality as an alternative to ideological or religious dogma.

That's the big problem, and the wars we are waging in the mideast are just another example of the cynicism which the "west" (US) brings to international relations. Everyone with half a brain recognizes that we don't put our money where our mouth is, and that most of the problems we are trying to rectify are our own making (e.g. Saddam Hussein and the Taliban, both were trained and supplied by the US)

[Nogi]

This is an interesting discussion. I wish the arguments were more carefully constructed (I know - I'm in the wrong room.) so we could learn what the actual sticking points are but passion speaks volumes as well I suppose. Still a short, logical, well-thought out thesis would replace a lot of random, poorly-formed scatterlings. (I know - who can be bothered.) Make your argument and let it stand or fall on its own. Making a poor argument and then having to campaign for it gets tiresome and, ultimately, only makes a statement about ego.

Example: Trying to dissect this to construct a real point of view is tough.

The West pioneered the idea of religious tolerance. (And yes, I say this without a bit of irony).

KKK

The West was the first to recognize freedom of speech, freedom of association, and freedom of the press.

You speak as if the United States is representative of the entire western civilization.. shows your arrogance and ignorance.

Confused: I would think that the existence of the KKK is a statement about tolerance in spite of the irony that they themselves have an intolerant message. Also, I think the KKK is largely an American org. So is SJ guilty of the 'arrogance and ignorance' of which he accuses MB in the second quote?

Still, we glean what we can. There are points of view available on this forum to which I don't have access in general. And, sometimes a very left field source can provide more insight than direct, linear research. I just wish the quality of the discussion did justice to the importance of the topic.

[Machinesworking]

&

The West reinstated democracy after a 2500 year absence.

and took it away from Iran

Checkmate.

Sweetjesus, it's not worth it. Mbreqs is a typical colonialist, absolutely assured that his culture is superior, therefore no actions of his culture can be wrong.... or at least those actions have an explanation that suits his agenda.

There is no excuse for what the US and the UK did to Iran, but mbreqs will come up with something to make himself feel better. He's a black and white thinker, the west is on the side of "good", therefore those that oppose some western policies, are halpin' them thar terrorists!!

It was not even a question in my mind that he would assume you were muslim, and try to "enlighten" you.

Since 98% of Iranians are Muslim, and Sweetjesus previously wrote that he is from Iran, it's a safe assumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Demography

Further to that, he seemed offended when he was looking for a new handle, and I jokingly suggested "Mohammad Al Madhi, Life of the Party", to keep in the theme of using religious figures in his title. He seemed to have no problem calling himself after a Christian figure, but took offence that I suggested a muslim one. That's the second clue.

Man? with all the education you supposedly have how emotionally immature can you be? Calling a holy person "sweet" or "life of the party", which shows reverence, and which shows disdain and not so subtle lack of respect?
And this again, is why I wasn't surprised you would not think about what you were assuming to be true, but just barrel in with suggested readings and other lessons to "help"...........

[b0unce]

"updates from afghanistan" is an anagram for "a adamant posters huffing"