The Big Three lol

[beats me]

Also riddle me this, the motherfuckers can outsource 80% of the manufacturing to other countries for years, and not a peep about lost jobs, yet once they want a fucking handout from the government, it's all about the jobs man! Freaking union broke our backs and raped us blind waaah waahh!! Ima go fly in my Leer jet to beg the government for a handout waaaah!
Gotta love it, and here you guys are all biting hook line and sinker, "gosh darn it! how dare someone receive medical after retirement when all they did is work for the same darned company for 30 odd years? By golly those factory workers are raping the CEOs!!"

I'm really not swayed by the executive vs. the common worker argument. It's not the point and people need to quit looking at that. The fact of the matter is everybody at every level got a really sweet deal that most people don't get in other companies and industries. So boohoo to nobody. What pisses me off further is that foreign car manufacturers are one of the few industries that actually bring jobs to the US while a lot of US based companies export their jobs out of the country and the big three assholes are screaming like they single-handedly prop up our economy.

If they went bankrupt or even simply disappeared that means other companies would most likely buy up their assets and run the new companies more efficiently and at the same time demand for more foreign cars would go up and also create more jobs here.

[ChiDJ]

Let them fall.

Spend the Money on a new national power Grid.

Hire the laid off workers to build a Solar Power grid in the West and a Wind Power Grid in the MidWest.

Labor shifts from Petroleum based to Solar / Wind Power.

Jobs saved / oil dependency reduced / New National Infrastructure.

Solved!

[beats me]

Let them fall.

Spend the Money on a new national power Grid.

Hire the laid off workers to build a Solar Power grid in the West and a Wind Power Grid in the MidWest.

Labor shifts from Petroleum based to Solar / Wind Power.

Jobs saved / oil dependency reduced / New National Infrastructure.

Solved!

Amen. But you can't drive a solar powered windmill to work.

[GrooveNinja]

Anyways, I was irked by the statement that American cars suck ass, when no, they don't. Not all of them.

which would you buy? there are brands I wouldn't even consider. Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac, Lincoln, Mercury... absolutely retarded cars for old people who can't drive. Jeep and Hummer - yeah, fucking great, a whole line of cars with pathetic mileage ratings. Cadillac? polished turds.

Actually, I buy BMWs these days, but I also have a Ford Ranger that has been absolutely wonderful. Cheap, dependable, bomb-proof, and hauls half a ton of crap to the dump. In general, I despise GM products, although I wouldn't mind a '67 Vette. Lincoln had a nice car with the LS. The new Mustang is a damn fine car, and pretty hot, too. Ditto on the Challenger. And I would buy another Ranger, but I doubt that I will have to.

[GrooveNinja]

Let them fall.

Spend the Money on a new national power Grid.

Hire the laid off workers to build a Solar Power grid in the West and a Wind Power Grid in the MidWest.

Labor shifts from Petroleum based to Solar / Wind Power.

Jobs saved / oil dependency reduced / New National Infrastructure.

Solved!

That is one thing that has really annoyed me! I live in frickin' Phoenix, so why can't I solar power my DAW? Because solar panels are too expensive! I would love nothing more than to be solar powered and free of the utilities.

[GrooveNinja]

Also riddle me this, the motherfuckers can outsource 80% of the manufacturing to other countries for years, and not a peep about lost jobs, yet once they want a fucking handout from the government, it's all about the jobs man! Freaking union broke our backs and raped us blind waaah waahh!! Ima go fly in my Leer jet to beg the government for a handout waaaah!
Gotta love it, and here you guys are all biting hook line and sinker, "gosh darn it! how dare someone receive medical after retirement when all they did is work for the same darned company for 30 odd years? By golly those factory workers are raping the CEOs!!"

I don't think that anyone here is buying that. The general consensus seem to be fuck 'em all!

[GrooveNinja]

I'm really not swayed by the executive vs. the common worker argument. It's not the point and people need to quit looking at that. The fact of the matter is everybody at every level got a really sweet deal that most people don't get in other companies and industries. So boohoo to nobody. What pisses me off further is that foreign car manufacturers are one of the few industries that actually bring jobs to the US while a lot of US based companies export their jobs out of the country and the big three assholes are screaming like they single-handedly prop up our economy.

Right on! I haven't gotten a raise in years, while I have watched all of my expenses increase significantly. And just this week, the company that I work for announced a 10% across the board paycut! But I am not going to sit around and whine about it, or go begging to Big Brother to bail my lame ass out.

[GrooveNinja]

I agree, but to go back to your take that in your experience US cars have lasted longer etc. Well statistically your experience is rare. There's no set amount of time that any car breaks down, but japanese cars tend to last longer as a whole, hence the image. The reasons are probably where they cut costs VS us.
Also, laying blame for the bad business choices of the big three on the union is stupid. Anytime they want to, they could break the unions, in fact with the amount of people laying blame on the workers wages, (when most of the work is outsourced anyway) I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the outcomes of all this. They made bad choices on where to spend their research time on, and what to offer the public IMO.
Offering huge gas guzzling vehicles, because people were doing a sort of "fuck you!!" to the middle east, either subconsciously or consciously, then watching gas prices get to over 4$ a gallon, I wasn't at all surprised that US car companies were all of a sudden doing badly.

Poppycock! How many Toyota cars from the 70's and 80's do you see on the road? How many Hondas with 1/2 million miles? Sure, maybe from the factory, for the first 60,000 miles, they will be problem free. But after that, forget it. Everything will start breaking down. Fuck Consumer Reports, they are full of crap. But I don't think that American cars are going to be much better, and they may not be as trouble free for those first 60,000 miles, either. The trucks, though, are a completely different story, although Toyota trucks also seem to have a long history of ruggedness. Now German cars...

[beats me]

I'm really not swayed by the executive vs. the common worker argument. It's not the point and people need to quit looking at that. The fact of the matter is everybody at every level got a really sweet deal that most people don't get in other companies and industries. So boohoo to nobody. What pisses me off further is that foreign car manufacturers are one of the few industries that actually bring jobs to the US while a lot of US based companies export their jobs out of the country and the big three assholes are screaming like they single-handedly prop up our economy.

Right on! I haven't gotten a raise in years, while I have watched all of my expenses increase significantly. And just this week, the company that I work for announced a 10% across the board paycut! But I am not going to sit around and whine about it, or go begging to Big Brother to bail my lame ass out.

I'm listening to a conference call meeting with our CEO right now. Over the last year they've consistantly laid people off and closed locations quarter after quarter and there is no end in site. We are also owned by a huge well known corporation that isn't doing too poorly in the economy but cuts still need to be made and the fact is what we offer customers is in low demand right now. But not once has the CEO talked about going to the government and I think most employees realize at the end of the day that if the demand isn't there then it doesn't make sense to keep the same employee level.

The big three and the unions don't seem to give a shit that nobody is interested in buying their products and yet want to maintain the same level of people, salaries, and expenses.

[mkelly]

Poppycock! How many Toyota cars from the 70's and 80's do you see on the road? How many Hondas with 1/2 million miles? Sure, maybe from the factory, for the first 60,000 miles, they will be problem free. But after that, forget it. Everything will start breaking down. Fuck Consumer Reports, they are full of crap. But I don't think that American cars are going to be much better, and they may not be as trouble free for those first 60,000 miles, either. The trucks, though, are a completely different story, although Toyota trucks also seem to have a long history of ruggedness. Now German cars...

Posting this solely for interest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrk6vsb77xk

[chrysalis33rpm]

...
The big three and the unions don't seem to give a shit that nobody is interested in buying their products and yet want to maintain the same level of people, salaries, and expenses.

Agreed, and I sympathize with the frustrations a lot of you have expressed with the bailout potential.

But there is something which nobody has mentioned, which is: how do you deal with the fact that in the event of collapse of the Big 3 (which they deserve IMO), you have a few hundred thousand people suddenly out of work- and out of those pensions as well? That is the barrel of the gun my friends. Somebody will foot the bill for that- or see entire states collapse into decrepitude.

No, they don't deserve the bailout. But do you deserve the immediate consequences of not bailing them out? Can the economy take it without imploding? I'd wager that none of us have direct experience with what an economy looks like when it really stops working- that's what the experts are shouting at us right now. I say fuck 'em- but it really might be worth 25 billion just to kick the can down the road a year or two, if you stop to think about how the economy works i think you'll understand why I say that.

On a related note, is anybody as worried as me that the same crowd of people who got us into this mess are now being signed up to get us out of it? (Lawrence Summers and co....)

[chrysalis33rpm]

Let them fall.

Spend the Money on a new national power Grid.

Hire the laid off workers to build a Solar Power grid in the West and a Wind Power Grid in the MidWest.

Labor shifts from Petroleum based to Solar / Wind Power.

Jobs saved / oil dependency reduced / New National Infrastructure.

Solved!

Word, man. But actually pulling it off is another story. If B.O. can do that, then I'll be applauding him.

[sparklepuff]

you have a few hundred thousand people suddenly out of work

553,000 jobs lost in November alone. We'll live.

[beats me]

you have a few hundred thousand people suddenly out of work

553,000 jobs lost in November alone. We'll live.

Exactly. The auto industry is a drop in the bucket but they think they have the corner on the market because it's one big lay off as opposed to hundreds of thousands more spread out through hundreds of companies which didn't get bailed out. But the result will be foreign auto makers ramping up their operations here and employing more people and at the same time new US auto companies being born that run more effeciently.

[chrysalis33rpm]

you have a few hundred thousand people suddenly out of work

553,000 jobs lost in November alone. We'll live.

Exactly. The auto industry is a drop in the bucket but they think they have the corner on the market because it's one big lay off as opposed to hundreds of thousands more spread out through hundreds of companies which didn't get bailed out. But the result will be foreign auto makers ramping up their operations here and employing more people and at the same time new US auto companies being born that run more effeciently.

The key is, eventually. Eventually, yes, that will happen.

How much pain will we go through to get there? A half million jobs lost in one month, you and I can still afford to be flippant. If that happens for another year straight- it's gonna be a much different story. We hear stories of the 30's, but I don't think we really want to imagine what that would be like to go through something similar.

Drop in the bucket you say? I gotta drop in the bucket for you- this whole bailout is nothing but a punctuation mark in a long sentence that began with the American invention of easy credit. We've been high rollin' since the 1950's, borrowing and stealing from our children, from the planet, and from the poor. But you can't inflate the value of real goods and real estate forever- and the piper is finally demanding to be paid. And there's 2 wars on, our national infrastructure is failing, our technological development is behind comparable nations, and we are dumber and lazier than ever.

I don't know the right thing to do- but anyone who isn't taken aback by the magnitude of the situation is either not paying attention, or trying to sell you something.