Shower of moaners

[Geebag]

Couldn't agree more with Geebag (@Geebag; u a Dub?)

.

Yep a Dub. Who else would be called Geebag. The Americans pronounce it gbag T Hee but we know what it means!

[heavensdaw]

No Thanks.... (in a positive way).....

Hd

[knotkranky]

to the OP

Why you're bitching about "people shouldn't be bitching" is beyond me.

Abes doesn't needing anything from me other than my money(positive affirmation) and my bitching(my influence).

Just about everything you like about Live has come from bitching.

?

I agree... we nagged and we got...in order to develop ...
Ableton needs to know it's customers needs...
especially if there's a new version every year...

Nice attitude guys.

whoa whoa whoa, now wait a minute my friend. You are out of line.

Attitude? I've given you my 6 update$ $ince v1, spent countless hours learning the program, turning others on to it, and you have a problem with my attitude? pfft.

So much for ableton support I say. But, I don't have a problem with abe's support and bless the abe's programmers too, but I do have a problem with abes management and they can go jump in a lake. Their practices are atrocious. I bet you Henke shakes his head plenty about them. v5 was an utter disaster but not for abes. I payed dearly for that program and spent a few thousand in hardware for it. Not to mention the frustration in trying to accomplish a glitch-less hour or two of music making. Not to mention your post release debugging program OY! You(abes) ask's more from your users than any company in your ilk. Attitude? You have no right checking me on that. V5 was devilishly marketed well beyond it's promises and was only dealt with by a newer payed upgrade! 7 was no picnic either was it? Now I ask, Is 8 going to be the same deal? I certainly can assume so by the way it's been.

Think about this, I bet you there's a large number of users on this board who pay for upgrades to have a better working version of what they've already bought. Abe's is well aware of this and uses it unscrupulously to it's advantage.

Abe's management, be it ceo, vp's cfo, marketers and bankers are a nefarious group i say. Unfortunately for support but most convenient for management is that support is directly in their line of fire for their decisions and i'm sorry for that but, it is not my responsibility to candy coat this because you're not management. They can drop in on this thread any time and give you a hand.

Back to the point, If I or anyone for that matter can raise enough hell (bitch) about a feature or the stability issues and get other like minded users voicing the same (and there are plenty) then we have done well by everyone who uses it "if" we are heard(loud enough). As far as the complete jerks that make your day rough, they are everywhere my friend. No use complaining about them unless it gets you action against them. You won't catch me bitching about moaners......... Blessed are the dissatisfied.

So tell me [nis] , will this be the most stable Live release yet?

[spookyrockstar]

I agree... we nagged and we got...in order to develop ...
Ableton needs to know it's customers needs...
especially if there's a new version every year...

Nice attitude guys.

whoa whoa whoa, now wait a minute my friend. You are out of line.

Attitude? I've given you my 6 update$ $ince v1, spent countless hours learning the program, turning others on to it, and you have a problem with my attitude? pfft.

So much for ableton support I say. But, I don't have a problem with abe's support and bless the abe's programmers too, but I do have a problem with abes management and they can go jump in a lake. Their practices are atrocious. I bet you Henke shakes his head plenty about them. v5 was an utter disaster but not for abes. I payed dearly for that program and spent a few thousand in hardware for it. Not to mention the frustration in trying to accomplish a glitch-less hour or two of music making. Not to mention your post release debugging program OY! You(abes) ask's more from your users than any company in your ilk. Attitude? You have no right checking me on that. V5 was devilishly marketed well beyond it's promises and was only dealt with by a newer payed upgrade! 7 was no picnic either was it? Now I ask, Is 8 going to be the same deal? I certainly can assume so by the way it's been.

Think about this, I bet you there's a large number of users on this board who pay for upgrades to have a better working version of what they've already bought. Abe's is well aware of this and uses it unscrupulously to it's advantage.

Abe's management, be it ceo, vp's cfo, marketers and bankers are a nefarious group i say. Unfortunately for support but most convenient for management is that support is directly in their line of fire for their decisions and i'm sorry for that but, it is not my responsibility to candy coat this because you're not management. They can drop in on this thread any time and give you a hand.

Back to the point, If I or anyone for that matter can raise enough hell (bitch) about a feature or the stability issues and get other like minded users voicing the same (and there are plenty) then we have done well by everyone who uses it "if" we are heard(loud enough). As far as the complete jerks that make your day rough, they are everywhere my friend. No use complaining about them unless it gets you action against them. You won't catch me bitching about moaners......... Blessed are the dissatisfied.

So tell me [nis] , will this be the most stable Live release yet?

There's nothing wrong with being dis-satisfied about anything you've purchased, or invested time into. But there are plenty of people who can get results or their voices heard without screaming it with a bullhorn from the top of a soapbox.

It's the difference between expressing your dissapointment in a civilized manner with a compelling argument, and just plain throwing a temper tantrum. The difference between a protester and a protester who always feels the need to break shit.

[Gurulogic]

I think it just bothers some users of lower intellect that some users of higher intellect are able to find things that cannot yet be done by users of any intellect with the software as provided

[knotkranky]

Nice attitude guys.

whoa whoa whoa, now wait a minute my friend. You are out of line.

Attitude? I've given you my 6 update$ $ince v1, spent countless hours learning the program, turning others on to it, and you have a problem with my attitude? pfft.

So much for ableton support I say. But, I don't have a problem with abe's support and bless the abe's programmers too, but I do have a problem with abes management and they can go jump in a lake. Their practices are atrocious. I bet you Henke shakes his head plenty about them. v5 was an utter disaster but not for abes. I payed dearly for that program and spent a few thousand in hardware for it. Not to mention the frustration in trying to accomplish a glitch-less hour or two of music making. Not to mention your post release debugging program OY! You(abes) ask's more from your users than any company in your ilk. Attitude? You have no right checking me on that. V5 was devilishly marketed well beyond it's promises and was only dealt with by a newer payed upgrade! 7 was no picnic either was it? Now I ask, Is 8 going to be the same deal? I certainly can assume so by the way it's been.

Think about this, I bet you there's a large number of users on this board who pay for upgrades to have a better working version of what they've already bought. Abe's is well aware of this and uses it unscrupulously to it's advantage.

Abe's management, be it ceo, vp's cfo, marketers and bankers are a nefarious group i say. Unfortunately for support but most convenient for management is that support is directly in their line of fire for their decisions and i'm sorry for that but, it is not my responsibility to candy coat this because you're not management. They can drop in on this thread any time and give you a hand.

Back to the point, If I or anyone for that matter can raise enough hell (bitch) about a feature or the stability issues and get other like minded users voicing the same (and there are plenty) then we have done well by everyone who uses it "if" we are heard(loud enough). As far as the complete jerks that make your day rough, they are everywhere my friend. No use complaining about them unless it gets you action against them. You won't catch me bitching about moaners......... Blessed are the dissatisfied.

So tell me [nis] , will this be the most stable Live release yet?

There's nothing wrong with being dis-satisfied about anything you've purchased, or invested time into. But there are plenty of people who can get results or their voices heard without screaming it with a bullhorn from the top of a soapbox.

It's the difference between expressing your dissapointment in a civilized manner with a compelling argument, and just plain throwing a temper tantrum. The difference between a protester and a protester who always feels the need to break shit.

Oh no my friend, there's plenty wrong with being dissatisfied with one's purchase and I don't find comfort with those who get results without screaming when I am not getting results myself. Nice sentiment though.

But I also disagree with you about bullhorns and soapboxes. They yell plenty in congress and parliament right? Getting right pissed-off is a very necessary reality. Sure, it's not civilized but plenty of good people and myself would cash-in a few moments of civility to finally get our most important results made a reality. That is simply how badly we want the results. That's passion and the beauty of protest. Sometimes it's time to fight and raise hell. History says so.

I'll tell ya though, if 8 is glitchy and a cluster fuck out of the box. We should organize a VERY major and VERY loud revolt that even the trade magazines would notice because at that point, it's abuse. That'll hit the abes management where it hurts. If 8 has a decent release and is glitch-free, i'll go fan-boy all over this forum.

[spookyrockstar]

whoa whoa whoa, now wait a minute my friend. You are out of line.

Attitude? I've given you my 6 update$ $ince v1, spent countless hours learning the program, turning others on to it, and you have a problem with my attitude? pfft.

So much for ableton support I say. But, I don't have a problem with abe's support and bless the abe's programmers too, but I do have a problem with abes management and they can go jump in a lake. Their practices are atrocious. I bet you Henke shakes his head plenty about them. v5 was an utter disaster but not for abes. I payed dearly for that program and spent a few thousand in hardware for it. Not to mention the frustration in trying to accomplish a glitch-less hour or two of music making. Not to mention your post release debugging program OY! You(abes) ask's more from your users than any company in your ilk. Attitude? You have no right checking me on that. V5 was devilishly marketed well beyond it's promises and was only dealt with by a newer payed upgrade! 7 was no picnic either was it? Now I ask, Is 8 going to be the same deal? I certainly can assume so by the way it's been.

Think about this, I bet you there's a large number of users on this board who pay for upgrades to have a better working version of what they've already bought. Abe's is well aware of this and uses it unscrupulously to it's advantage.

Abe's management, be it ceo, vp's cfo, marketers and bankers are a nefarious group i say. Unfortunately for support but most convenient for management is that support is directly in their line of fire for their decisions and i'm sorry for that but, it is not my responsibility to candy coat this because you're not management. They can drop in on this thread any time and give you a hand.

Back to the point, If I or anyone for that matter can raise enough hell (bitch) about a feature or the stability issues and get other like minded users voicing the same (and there are plenty) then we have done well by everyone who uses it "if" we are heard(loud enough). As far as the complete jerks that make your day rough, they are everywhere my friend. No use complaining about them unless it gets you action against them. You won't catch me bitching about moaners......... Blessed are the dissatisfied.

So tell me [nis] , will this be the most stable Live release yet?

There's nothing wrong with being dis-satisfied about anything you've purchased, or invested time into. But there are plenty of people who can get results or their voices heard without screaming it with a bullhorn from the top of a soapbox.

It's the difference between expressing your dissapointment in a civilized manner with a compelling argument, and just plain throwing a temper tantrum. The difference between a protester and a protester who always feels the need to break shit.

Oh no my friend, there's plenty wrong with being dissatisfied with one's purchase and I don't find comfort with those who get results without screaming when I am not getting results myself. Nice sentiment though.

Don't mistake my meaning. Being unhappy with something is something you SHOULD do if you're well, not happy. But it is possible to get results without chaos, even with issues bigger than some software you CHOOOSE to buy.


But I also disagree with you about bullhorns and soapboxes. They yell plenty in congress and parliament right? Getting right pissed-off is a very necessary reality. Sure, it's not civilized but plenty of good people and myself would cash-in a few moments of civility to finally get our most important results made a reality. That is simply how badly we want the results. That's passion and the beauty of protest. Sometimes it's time to fight and raise hell. History says so.

Again. Protest *IS* a great way for the unjust to be heard. Breaking shit and rioting is sometimes just an excuse for people to break shit.


I'll tell ya though, if 8 is glitchy and a cluster fuck out of the box. We should organize a VERY major and VERY loud revolt that even the trade magazines would notice because at that point, it's abuse. That'll hit the abes management where it hurts. If 8 has a decent release and is glitch-free, i'll go fan-boy all over this forum.

This is what I'm talking about. Are you gonna CHOOSE to pay for something then complain about YOUR choice? That's what the demo is for. Run that demo fucking ragged!

Don't get me wrong. I fight. Both physically and mentally, and on paper. But I choose my battles. Stuff like racism? Oppression? Oh yeah. Software? Nope I Just don't spend the money.

[decrepitude]

Forum posts are like television - you can choose to turn the channel. That also goes for ironic posts like this.

This forum does have it's reputation of contentiousness, but I know of many other discussion groups far, far worse than this one.

If you don't like what a person posts, you can choose to ignore it or engage it.

If Ableton's attitude toward agresssive opinions and criticism is to ignore them (which I completely doubt) it would certainly diminish their capacity to progress the program as well as is possible.

In the general customer service realm, it is commonly accepted that strong objections should be considered opportunities, not personal insults. In my day job our company is also involved in manufacturing and I can say from experience that when we receive some scathing feedback we react to it with more vigor than the polite and subdued ones. I believe this is a bit "alarmist" at times, but the owners and managers always consider harsh opinions very seriously.

Confrontation and strong opinions can be difficult to hear, but sitting on your high horse and pointing down in judgment at "moaners" could be viewed as equally deplorable.

[spookyrockstar]

Forum posts are like television - you can choose to turn the channel. That also goes for ironic posts like this.

This forum does have it's reputation of contentiousness, but I know of many other discussion groups far, far worse than this one.

If you don't like what a person posts, you can choose to ignore it or engage it.

If Ableton's attitude toward agresssive opinions and criticism is to ignore them (which I completely doubt) it would certainly diminish their capacity to progress the program as well as is possible.

In the general customer service realm, it is commonly accepted that strong objections should be considered opportunities, not personal insults. In my day job our company is also involved in manufacturing and I can say from experience that when we receive some scathing feedback we react to it with more vigor than the polite and subdued ones. I believe this is a bit "alarmist" at times, but the owners and managers always consider harsh opinions very seriously.

Confrontation and strong opinions can be difficult to hear, but sitting on your high horse and pointing down in judgment at "moaners" could be viewed as equally deplorable.

Good point. Really good point. I do love love the view from *my* high horse sometimes. I am a Berkeley native after all.

One last snipe though, is that even *you* made your point eloquently, forward, but without starting a crusade about 'people judging moaners'.

I don't believe Ableton is ignoring the glitches or any initial complaints regarding their software, but I don't believe an angry coup will get it fixed any faster either. (UNLESS the coup is in the form of a notable loss of sales) However you *did* make a good point about irony and ignoring rather than pointing judgmental fingers, and I will step down offa *my* soapbox!

[knotkranky]

Forum posts are like television - you can choose to turn the channel. That also goes for ironic posts like this.

This forum does have it's reputation of contentiousness, but I know of many other discussion groups far, far worse than this one.

If you don't like what a person posts, you can choose to ignore it or engage it.

If Ableton's attitude toward agresssive opinions and criticism is to ignore them (which I completely doubt) it would certainly diminish their capacity to progress the program as well as is possible.

In the general customer service realm, it is commonly accepted that strong objections should be considered opportunities, not personal insults. In my day job our company is also involved in manufacturing and I can say from experience that when we receive some scathing feedback we react to it with more vigor than the polite and subdued ones. I believe this is a bit "alarmist" at times, but the owners and managers always consider harsh opinions very seriously.

Confrontation and strong opinions can be difficult to hear, but sitting on your high horse and pointing down in judgment at "moaners" could be viewed as equally deplorable.

Good point. Really good point. I do love love the view from *my* high horse sometimes. I am a Berkeley native after all.

One last snipe though, is that even *you* made your point eloquently, forward, but without starting a crusade about 'people judging moaners'.

I don't believe Ableton is ignoring the glitches or any initial complaints regarding their software, but I don't believe an angry coup will get it fixed any faster either. (UNLESS the coup is in the form of a notable loss of sales) However you *did* make a good point about irony and ignoring rather than pointing judgmental fingers, and I will step down offa *my* soapbox!

They most certainly are ignoring the glitches but i'm not going to labor the point. It's not a subject that is of any value to enough users here, which is weird, and I don't take enjoyment in being a bore either. But you're wrong about an angry coup being ineffectual but right about hitting them in their fat wallets since that's the attention getter of any value.

Don't misunderstand my reasoning. I am passionate about Live, but the company suits? not so much, dig? They laugh all the way to the bank while they release unfinished software that we buy and painstakingly, but not completely, de-bugg for them until a new version diverts u$ from that and the cycle continues. It's a nasty development born from version 5. The power to change that is here in this forum.

evs

[hoffman2k]

The power to change that is here in this forum.

Well I'm glad you ended with that. Makes my following question less tongue in cheek...

Can you link me to some of your bug reports? I thought I'd check some out to see if you could be less kranky, but as far as Ableton's search function is concerned - there isn't a single thread or even post there by you.

You have all the right to get upset if you're having issues. Anybody does.
But if you expect Live 8 to be bug-free, I'd start making some threads about these bugs you're having. The more people confirm them, the more likely its going to get fixed.. ONE PERSON reported a reproducible bug that basically entailed that overdub MIDI recording hasn't worked since Live 6. It got fixed within weeks of the report and even Live 6 got an update.

You can go nuts with the ranting, but please put at least half of that energy into a bug report. We will all benefit from it.

Poor Nico. Probably asking himself why people keep replying to his on sentence posts with rants

[knotkranky]

The power to change that is here in this forum.

Well I'm glad you ended with that. Makes my following question less tongue in cheek...

Can you link me to some of your bug reports? I thought I'd check some out to see if you could be less kranky, but as far as Ableton's search function is concerned - there isn't a single thread or even post there by you.

You have all the right to get upset if you're having issues. Anybody does.
But if you expect Live 8 to be bug-free, I'd start making some threads about these bugs you're having. The more people confirm them, the more likely its going to get fixed.. ONE PERSON reported a reproducible bug that basically entailed that overdub MIDI recording hasn't worked since Live 6. It got fixed within weeks of the report and even Live 6 got an update.

You can go nuts with the ranting, but please put at least half of that energy into a bug report. We will all benefit from it.

Poor Nico. Probably asking himself why people keep replying to his on sentence posts with rants

Rats! hoffman2k in the hizzy. Yer too smart to go toe to toe with you my friend, lol.

Full disclosure, i haven't upgraded since 5.2.2. but I've got a boner for 8 and the akai thingy too so i'm on the fence with 5 benjamin$ for suite and 4 for akai controller. $1k

I've stayed close to the board for 6 and 7 so I don't want to mess with those. Nope.

The issue is not some bugs per se, but too many bugs or the "one" that breaks my flow. Of course nothing is bug free, but between my ProTools, Logic, garageband, Bias Peak - Live is unfairly infested at release and a long time in getting straight-ish then boom! shinny new version? The load on users/buyers is ott. Can I get an Amen?

My glitches are subtle and only occasional but probably tolerated buy most. The occasional crash, the weird freeze etc, i can tolerate. Yes, that's software life. But a little 5ms warble every inconsistent ten to twenty minutes or two hours at best i can't tolerate. Then there are the teeny ones "I think" i heard? confidence lost, balls a size smaller.

Mac PPC dual 2.5, 4 gig ram, raptor10k system drive, raptor10k audio drive. Very generous buffers. native mac out-put or Apogee mini DAC same prob. OS and drivers up to date and Live approved. No NI plugs or vsts loaded, Live only, light load on the cpu bar. I've been pm'd some time ago by very capable power users during 5 that have admitted that's just the way it goes. I believe em.

All that said, i'm not excited to load 5, 6, or 7 on my new velociraptor drive soooo Load 5.2.2, load session, fill report eewww no. Load v8 14day demo? Ok. Btw, when I bought 5 it was a none saving demo so impossible to put through it's paces before purchase not including the no return policy. 14 days full operation is a smart move btw.

Now, i'm not the only dude with this stability problem am i? and not all cases similar or not get solved do they? And here's the rub, too many bug reports and I'm done again anyway, left to wander the ableton forum writing political threads, attacking pro moderation freaks and waiting for abes-support to pull the attitude card

[hoffman2k]

Yer too smart to go toe to toe with you my friend, lol.

That sentence nearly fried my brain
To go toe to toe? Not mentioning the me, myself and I thing..

Anyway, yes there are a lot of bugs near the release. But I'm pretty sure Ableton learned from their past mistakes. If we took bets in 2006 about when Live 8 would appear.. A lot of money would have been lost on 2008. And they still got a quarter of a year till they "have" to release it.
If they don't fix bugs that can be reproduced by many users, we will complain in unison. If everybody just adds up the sum total of their experience in a single "Live is buggy" and posts it a hundred times... It doesn't mean they reported those bugs or even gave any indication as to what the hell is wrong in their posts.

You complain therefore you are. I get it.
But this isn't a 9/11 conspiracy here. If you really have the dedication to pursue this path: I want links, reports, videos of Alex Jones screaming how Live is destroying the world, pie charts, crash logs, Live sets, Etc...

For all those political threads that went way over my head.. - You're on my turf now bitch!

Btw.. Referencing 3 year old PM's.. Not getting any points with that mate

[knotkranky]

Yer too smart to go toe to toe with you my friend, lol.

That sentence nearly fried my brain
To go toe to toe? Not mentioning the me, myself and I thing..

Anyway, yes there are a lot of bugs near the release. But I'm pretty sure Ableton learned from their past mistakes. If we took bets in 2006 about when Live 8 would appear.. A lot of money would have been lost on 2008. And they still got a quarter of a year till they "have" to release it.
If they don't fix bugs that can be reproduced by many users, we will complain in unison. If everybody just adds up the sum total of their experience in a single "Live is buggy" and posts it a hundred times... It doesn't mean they reported those bugs or even gave any indication as to what the hell is wrong in their posts.

You complain therefore you are. I get it.
But this isn't a 9/11 conspiracy here. If you really have the dedication to pursue this path: I want links, reports, videos of Alex Jones screaming how Live is destroying the world, pie charts, crash logs, Live sets, Etc...

For all those political threads that went way over my head.. - You're on my turf now bitch!

Btw.. Referencing 3 year old PM's.. Not getting any points with that mate

That sentence nearly fried my brain Laughing
To go toe to toe? Not mentioning the me, myself and I thing..

Rats!, you got me. I tried the double reverse inner sanctum forward rear-view mind virus. Foiled again! *shakes fist*

Anyway, yes there are a lot of bugs near the release. But I'm pretty sure Ableton learned from their past mistakes. If we took bets in 2006 about when Live 8 would appear.. A lot of money would have been lost on 2008. And they still got a quarter of a year till they "have" to release it.
If they don't fix bugs that can be reproduced by many users, we will complain in unison. If everybody just adds up the sum total of their experience in a single "Live is buggy" and posts it a hundred times... It doesn't mean they reported those bugs or even gave any indication as to what the hell is wrong in their posts.

umm, ok, i'll do what i can. I can't express how badly I want abes to hit the mark with this one. I've been on since v1 and upgraded every time but 6 n 7. It wouldn't be so bad for their mistakes if I hadn't paid for one. But i'll take to heart your assertion that abes has learned from their mistakes. I just am not interested in working towards some distant Live utopia where abes finally nails it and we're proud. I'm no fanboy cuz i'm too old and surly for that. I've spent the better part of 25 years in audio getting the gear out of my way for god sakes. I just wanna rock and flow without interference with this amazing UI.

You complain therefore you are. I get it.
But this isn't a 9/11 conspiracy here. If you really have the dedication to pursue this path: I want links, reports, videos of Alex Jones screaming how Live is destroying the world, pie charts, crash logs, Live sets, Etc... Wink

But that's just it. I don't want to dedicate myself to bug reports and crash logs. I only have a few of those in me for that so i'll be checking 8.1 first. And Abes mistakes are Alex's mistakes so from my point of view he's doing a sucky job. A sucky job for users but a great job for investors is another way of saying; great job i guess, lol.

For all those political threads that went way over my head.. - You're on my turf now bitch!

LOL, ok then.

Btw.. Referencing 3 year old PM's.. Not getting any points with that mate Very Happy

Yeah, well I just wasn't interested in 6 or 7 is all.

Ok, rant over and out....... Live8 Super-duper double-trouble with cheese rant in hibernation. TBD summer 09' zzzzzz

[hoffman2k]

But that's just it. I don't want to dedicate myself to bug reports and crash logs. I only have a few of those in me for that so i'll be checking 8.1 first. And Abes mistakes are Alex's mistakes so from my point of view he's doing a sucky job. A sucky job for users but a great job for investors is another way of saying; great job i guess, lol.

Care to clarify? I you haven't even participated in any beta tests in the past years. How do you even know Alex?

I'm sorry man, but now you're just stretching it. You can't be bothered to see if the issues that have been "haunting" you are fixed. But if something goes wrong, its Alex's fault for pleasing the investors?

Righteous Indignation.. It only works when you can back up your claims.
So far you jumped at 2 Abe's over stability issues without mentioning one reproducible bug. Shown you have no idea what you're talking about and are basically planning a "revolt" if your undefined demands aren't met for Live 8?

Really?