Ableton Forum

try opening your live7-sets in the live8-demo/trial
do they give any problems?->report to ableton
got any other problems with L8->report ffs
and if your still not comfy with it ...then just do not upgrade to 8..dont spend yr money then
updates will be there every 2 motnhs orso(just a rough guess based on previous betas/updates,in last few yrs/versions)

btw:several abes stated this more or less allready

in short:within about 2 moths time there will most likely be an update
and if you reported any bugs,they may have been fixed yes
..


anyway my 3 cts
greets
seis.

Jarvisimon wrote:I shan't go into everything here as i've had a half decent response from another Ableton employee, though perhaps he will yet be kind enough to answer some of the questions I raised in my answer.

ewistrand wrote:Surprise- he told you the same thing the other two Ableton people (Carl and Christian) did. What makes his answer acceptable and the other two's not? I'm waiting...

If you pay more attention they're very different. Carl and Christian basically said we'll update when we feel like it. At least nis has made an attempt at a time scale. Also, I actually call it a half decent answer, it's still quite vague and i've answered as such.

No proper assurance, no upgrade money given.

Jarvisimon wrote:I am intrigued to know what I said that could be construed as rudeness.

ewistrand wrote:Where to begin... should we start with ignoring everything that everybody's tried to point out to you? Or maybe it was your "Don't be condescending" remark? Or maybe it's that you've been carrying on like a five year old? Or...

Those are all rude in my book. My response was justified, and tamer than I normally would have been...

There is nothing rude in these sentences. I suggest that your book was dictated to you by market forces and a bug in your system. Nothing of any worth has been ignored from anyone. And this 5 yr old sure knows how to put a sentence together!

We were actually both keeping things civil until the "It's apparent you've never been involved in a software release before..." which I still find to be condescending, as I have been involved in several. However, that obviously got your back up because it was in the next post that you said "You're speaking shit" and that my ideas weren't sustainable.

I still disagree. It's a post about reassurance, something that could be rectified with a couple of sentences of text. Not an unsustainable idea.

They managed to sustain new betas almost every day for ages and now it's official they're not so bothered but are happy to take payment for something they know is buggy.

Imagine what it would be like if us users hadn't done the beta testing? They'd have to go to their trade shows with a product that resembled a rotting tree stump it had so many bugs in it.

How much damage would they have done to their reputation then? How many units would they have sold with a product that unstable?

Yet you think that Market forces are more important. Being a user, I disagree 110%.

Now, don't tame your answers just for me. Show me how rude you really can be. I'm not easily offended but I do like to see someone's true colours.

Jarvisimon wrote:Also, well done for not answering my question in regard to market forces and money being more important than stable software. I wouldn't have answered it either. Afterall, there isn't an answer anyone can come up with that justifies that point of view.

ewistrand wrote:There's nothing to answer there. We've all tried to show you how the software world works, and you refuse to listen. So be it.

I'm showing how my world works by not jumping at this upgrade just because it's an official release. Not all software manufacturers work this way, Propellerheads being a case in point, though I will agree with you here, it is the majority that do.

It's your choice to allow market forces to dictate your moves. Personally, i've got a bit more to me than that.

Thanks for trying to show me the way though, alas i'm not so gullible as to be dictated to by the latest thing.

And now i'm less enamoured by Ableton who are proving that they are.

Oh to be different from the masses.

ewistrand wrote:

Jarvisimon wrote: Also, I know for a fact that Reason 2.5 was prevented from being sent to the production line and had its release delayed due to a bug that got reported at the very last minute.

Say what? Reason 2.5 was a downloadable, free update; I've been a Reason user since v1. How did it cost them thousands to delay it?

ew

I am talking about the CD release, as it was a friend of mine who reported the bug. I have read the letter that Propellerheads sent him thanking him for having found the bug. He was a staying in my spare room at the time.

Also, it is just a guess as to how much it cost to delay it. I'm not privvy to their accounts.

Anyway, c'mon and don't hold back. If you want to blow a fuse, blow a fuse!

What CD release?
.
http://www.propellerheads.se/download/i ... on_updates

ew

seismicexplo wrote:try opening your live7-sets in the live8-demo/trial
do they give any problems?->report to ableton
got any other problems with L8->report ffs
and if your still not comfy with it ...then just do not upgrade to 8..dont spend yr money then
updates will be there every 2 motnhs orso(just a rough guess based on previous betas/updates,in last few yrs/versions)

btw:several abes stated this more or less allready

in short:within about 2 moths time there will most likely be an update
and if you reported any bugs,they may have been fixed yes
..


anyway my 3 cts
greets
seis.

Hi there Seismic,

Don't worry, I know how to open a live 7 project in Live 8 and how to report a bug. Funnily enough, I had bugs which I didn't know were bugs during the beta. Pointless crashes that I thought were user errors! Funny.

I've actually not fired up Ableton at all today. I started off in here asking what I thought would be a simple and welcomed request and it's kept me occupied for most of the day. I've got 4 more days in which to give 8 a bit more of a trial, so i'll try and fit it in tomorrow. I've got some work to catch up on though as i've wasted pretty much all of today.

I've already concluded that i'm not upgrading quite yet.

2 months between updates in previous betas is terrible. Nis has given me a vague couple of week approximation, so I hope they aim for that instead. As i'm sure do the people who can't get Live to work despite having already paid. Imagine how they must feel?

Though as long as the market forces are happy, that's all that really matters!

Makes me glad to know that I haven't parted with any money yet. So at least there's an upside.

Jarvisimon wrote:If you pay more attention they're very different. Carl and Christian basically said we'll update when we feel like it. At least nis has made an attempt at a time scale. Also, I actually call it a half decent answer, it's still quite vague and i've answered as such.

Ah- no they aren't that different. And no, that's not what they said.

There is nothing rude in these sentences. I suggest that your book was dictated to you by market forces and a bug in your system. Nothing of any worth has been ignored from anyone.

Say what?

And this 5 yr old sure knows how to put a sentence together!

So can my five year old niece; she's very literate.

We were actually both keeping things civil until the "It's apparent you've never been involved in a software release before..." which I still find to be condescending, as I have been involved in several. However, that obviously got your back up because it was in the next post that you said "You're speaking shit" and that my ideas weren't sustainable.

I still disagree. It's a post about reassurance, something that could be rectified with a couple of sentences of text. Not an unsustainable idea.

I'm gathering that you're talking about doing testing for the Props? They have one huge advantage in testing; Reason's a closed system. You don't have any worries about third party compatibility and the like. And, how many times have you been told that they (Ableton) can't give you the "reassurance" you need.

They managed to sustain new betas almost every day for ages and now it's official they're not so bothered but are happy to take payment for something they know is buggy.

Read hoffman2k's post again. Read it a third time. Maybe a fourth.

Imagine what it would be like if us users hadn't done the beta testing? They'd have to go to their trade shows with a product that resembled a rotting tree stump it had so many bugs in it.

How much damage would they have done to their reputation then? How many units would they have sold with a product that unstable?

But, they wouldn't have released it withot beta testing, would they. And, Ableton is the only major host that uses public betas. Go to the Cakewalk forum, the Digidesign forum, the Logic Users Group forum, the Steinberg forums- you'll see exactly the same thing; people complaining that the newest major version was released too early.

Note that I don't include the Props in here. Why? Once again- they don't have to worry about third party compatibility issues. If it's a ReWire issue, it's on the other vendor; the Props are the only ones who follow the ReWire protocol to a T, because they're the ones who created it.

Yet you think that Market forces are more important. Being a user, I disagree 110%.

I never said that. I did say that's the way of the industry; I didn't say that's my preference, did I? No.

Now, don't tame your answers just for me. Show me how rude you really can be. I'm not easily offended but I do like to see someone's true colours.

Let me say this instead. If this were one of my forums, I would have let you make your first post. I would have answered, and then pointed you to the forum rules. If you had continued, I would have locked the thread.

I'm showing how my world works by not jumping at this upgrade just because it's an official release. Not all software manufacturers work this way, Propellerheads being a case in point, though I will agree with you here, it is the majority that do.

Fine- that's your choice.

ew

Jarvisimon wrote:

hoffman2k wrote:when do you release a product?

What's wrong with releasing it when its ready?

Read some of my previous posts in this thread as most angles have already been covered.

Sure, we're all governed by finance to one degree or another but we shouldn't be seen as cashpoints because someone has gone over budget or their projected deadline has expired.

Upgrading to 8 now is up to you, though as I said, I shan't be jumping in there just yet.

Funnily enough, i've posted in the Props forum that I think they leave it too long between version upgrades but i'm going to have to go back there and apologise because their releases are generally bug free and they certainly haven't bowed to commercial pressures.

Also, I know for a fact that Reason 2.5 was prevented from being sent to the production line and had its release delayed due to a bug that got reported at the very last minute.

Now that's what I call integrity and must have cost them tens of thousands if not more.

Shame the Props don't offer quite the same tools as Ableton, otherwise I would at least have a viable alternative should Ableton one day lose their ingenuity.

You assume too much.
I too was part of that beta test. I think even before it went public.
If I recall correctly, they did delay the update but they were taking orders. So they were selling something that wasn't there yet.
The props do hundreds of builds. BUT, if you discovered a bug a day after a release, it was very likely to wait over a month to see a next version. Even though their version numbering suggests they probably fixed it 40 builds ago. My hat of to Louie for putting up with me...
My experience with the props was far worse than the one with Ableton.

You're conveniently walking around the point that software is NEVER ready.
Sure you can take Reason as an example of bug free software. Doesn't change the fact that my reported bug didn't get fixed until Reason 3 and by then I switched completely over to Live.
So who says you wouldn't have the same experience now? I can find 3 or 4 reproducible bugs. None of which are stopping me to do any work. To make Live crash, I really have to put in an effort.
And you know what? I can do the same with Live 7.0.15 all the beta's that became before Live 8.
Am I mad? Nope.... Wonna know why? I've reported about 100 bugs (probably confirmed more) and 95% of them got fixed.

And since I'm a pain in the ass, Ableton won't easily forget about bugs that are bugging me.

Anyway, looking forward to your next dodge. Just like bugs, what you're doing is something we take into account with a new release. You're on of the kinks that needs to be ironed out.
No amount "you won't see my money" will actually improve your case.

In fact.. After all the posting you did in this thread. I feel its your duty to download the 14-day trial and find bugs that prevent you from making music. See it as a challenge. 14 days... Loads of bugs in the bug report thread. So many user errors. So many badly maintained computers.. (including mine)
If you can reproduce 10 bugs that are reported on page 1 of the bugs section with the info provided from users, you'll see how damn easy it is to have it all fixed by the end of the week. Especially if the person who reported the bug forget to mention any details. Like what actually happened and on which computer..

ewistrand wrote:What CD release?
.
http://www.propellerheads.se/download/i ... on_updates

ew

This CD release http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp31 ... NY0078.jpg

If you didn't know it existed then perhaps you should realise that you don't know everything.

hoffman2k wrote: You assume too much.

I assume very little, however, I am not a coder and have never claimed to be so my understanding of it is limited but at no point have I expected the world of software to be bug free.

hoffman2k wrote:My experience with the props was far worse than the one with Ableton.

In that we are in agreement, however, I am getting to be more sympathetic to the Props.

hoffman2k wrote:You're conveniently walking around the point that software is NEVER ready.

Read my previous posts. I've never claimed that, don't try and ascribe words to me that have never been uttered.

hoffman2k wrote:Anyway, looking forward to your next dodge. Just like bugs, what you're doing is something we take into account with a new release. You're on of the kinks that needs to be ironed out.
No amount "you won't see my money" will actually improve your case.

No dodging necessary. The "you won't see my money" (until it's ready) is true for everyone and is the users best stance against software that isn't ready. Why would I want to pay for something that was unuseable?

hoffman2k wrote:In fact.. After all the posting you did in this thread. I feel its your duty to download the 14-day trial and find bugs that prevent you from making music.

Feel that way all you like, this is one subject where you can scream your head off about me ignoring you and it might be true. I do things as I please, not because you feel it is my duty.

Also, the many posts i've made in this thread (the thread that I started), were all relevant to either the initial post, or the subsequent answers and attacks.

I haven't said that its been unuseable on my machine. I came across a fair few bugs in the beta and to be honest it got a lot better by the official release. The thing that got this thread going was
other people's disappointment, so naturally I didn't want the same for myself.

Is there anything wrong with that?

hoffman2k wrote:See it as a challenge.

I'd rather see it as a lot of fun and that's how I shall approach it.

It's a weird old game, when you post something that appears to be negative, people jump on you as if you're defamating their god. I certainly didn't have any hassles off the Ableton team, they have been extremely courteous, though in reality they haven't wanted to hand out any concrete appeasements.

Asking for some reassurance in regards to bug fixes because I don't want to be one of the pissed off people who can't use 8 is pretty understandable when you think about it. I'm sure the Abes team don't hold any grudges against me for asking. Why anyone else should is beyond me.

hoffman2k wrote:you'll see how damn easy it is to have it all fixed by the end of the week.

Again, read my posts, i've never asked for anything of the sort. Though I don't see anything wrong with a weekly update of any bugs they've fixed, (should there be any), even better, to post bug fixes as soon as they are completed.

2 months is a hell of a long time to wait for an update if you can't do something simple like open an older project, or that by using Live 8, it wipes Gb's of files off an external hard drive as has been reported in both beta and 8.01.

One of the bugs I experienced (and I never thought of it as a bug at the time) was having to re-authorise Live because I had plugged my phone in to a USB port for charging. Apparently it's still there in the proper release, yet I know that happened to me several times during the testing.

A 2 month wait for an update is a long time and so I feel it's perfectly reasonable to ask Ableton to speed up the process. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean I can't ask them.

There were 28 betas presented for users to download and I downloaded at least half of them. Why is something similar not possible now it has an official release?

I started this thread because I read the woes of people who had to revert back to V7 after having paid for the update (many to the suite). It's value for money when you consider what you would have gotten for the same price 10 yrs ago, let alone 20 but it will be worthless if it crashes my projects.

What's wrong with a little solid reassurance and speedier fixes?

Right, I won't even bother quoting the stuff you made up.

Dunno where you got the 2 month figure from. Dunno which bugs you experienced so I can't confirm and report them. You did in fact say that software should be released when ready and then you go on to say you said no such thing. Then you say it isn't ready again.

Well, enjoy fighting to get quicker updates for bugs you don't actually experience and can't even confirm exist outside of the system of the person who reported it.

The key to speedier fixes? Write a detailed bug report with only facts.

And stop saying I have to read your posts if you don't read mine. Like I said earlier, the reason they're not working day and night now is because it is humanly impossible to keep up working around the clock. The customer care department and the head developers are collecting bug reports as we speak. Just check the beta forum.
They'll have a bug fix in a few weeks. Just like every year.
The only difference is that they now (if they're lucky) get some time to spend with their family. They haven't even had the official release party yet.

hats off to the people at Ableton HQ who stayed so cool during this whole thread!
you do a great job, working really hard to make Live (and life) better and get all the bugs fixed, so i don't really understand why someone like J. would spend hours and hours to keep on ranting on this forum that you should promise whatever.

I've been working with L8 beta for a month and I find 8.01 really good. so to me the people at Ableton have done an amazing job.
I mostly don't get involved in the discussions here as i prefer to make music, but i still like to be around, as some visitors supply me with great advice and tips or tricks. but i'm really surprised about the direction many threads are going now...someone mentioned in another thread that some visitors on this forum seem to behave kind of spoiled now...and i could'nt agree more.
maybe Ableton HQ has been too nice. too reasonable and understanding. so i suppose it's a good thing that a bigmouth like Tone Deft envetually will stand up and say to a whiner: STFU.

I've worked with a lot of different software and hardware and eventually I'd always find some bugs (also with hardware like the Virus, the MPC, etc), but as i was producing music and had to get on with it, i'd always find a workaround.

but so far that hasn't been necessary to me with L8. maybe it's my way of working, but I dind't encounter any problems at all.

so again, people at Ableton: thanks a lot. you made creating music even more fun. Ableton is the best program I've ever worked with.

cheers
g

QUAZAR wrote:i don't really understand why someone like J. would spend hours and hours to keep on ranting on this forum that you should promise whatever.

That's because I didn't say it.

You're one of several people who have tried to put sentences on me that aren't mine.

What is wrong with people in this forum?

The criteria seems to be "misquote someone and do it repeatedly".

Jarvisimon wrote: Will you be supplying us with daily/weekly bug fix updates until the software is considered stable? If not, what will your immediate actions be in order to make the software reliable?

I am asking you direct, as I feel this has to be answered properly before I part with my money.

I certainly don't want to be buying software that will crash my system knowing that it will be a long time before a solution is offered.

.

...

QUAZAR wrote:...but I didn’t encounter any problems at all

Acclaimed No crashes so far within three days of producing!

Get your system clean before blaming Live 8 for crashes and high cpu loads!

I avoid having any internet related applications on my music pc. This prevents me from failures and cpu consumption due to antivirus software, firewalls, messengers... I also switch of any power management such as intel speed step. My taskmanger shows only 12 running processes because I switched of all unnecessary network related services.

Make your DAW a real DAW and use a separate computer/installation for browsing, chatting, videos, mail, …!

hoffman2k wrote: Right, I won't even bother quoting the stuff you made up.

Namely?

hoffman2k wrote:Dunno where you got the 2 month figure from.

I got it from the post by Seismicexpo.

hoffman2k wrote:You did in fact say that software should be released when ready and then you go on to say you said no such thing. Then you say it isn't ready again.

A bit pedantic but you have me banged to rights there. I can see the contradiction, so I shall clarify.

By ready, I mean that there are no known crashes that haven't been dealt with. I don't think anyone who has reverted back to an earlier version agrees with you that it was at that stage. Even ewistrand concludes that it was likely marketing pressures and finance that forced an early release and he's not liked my posts at all.

So I still stick to my guns. If Ableton know that it's still crashing systems but release it because they've hit their beta testing deadline then, then it's been released too early and with no words of assurance that they have a speedy bug fixing program in place....well, what can I say?

hoffman2k wrote:Well, enjoy fighting to get quicker updates for bugs you don't actually experience and can't even confirm exist outside of the system of the person who reported it.

It was never meant to be a fight. It just ended up that way. Notice though, that no first punches were thrown by either myself or any of the Ableton team.

hoffman2k wrote:The key to speedier fixes? Write a detailed bug report with only facts.

Speedier still would have been a longer testing period using the purpose made bug reporting software in the beta.

hoffman2k wrote:And stop saying I have to read your posts if you don't read mine. Like I said earlier, the reason they're not working day and night now is because it is humanly impossible to keep up working around the clock. The customer care department and the head developers are collecting bug reports as we speak. Just check the beta forum.

I read your post but the amount of repeating i've had to do in order to answer these questions is unbelievable. This thread could have been a fraction of the length is has been.

I know they are working hard and I don't expect them to put in the hours they did on the beta but that doesn't mean that they've not got a load of fixes which could be presented as soon as they're done.

hoffman2k wrote:They'll have a bug fix in a few weeks. Just like every year.

Actually the answer I got was a bit more vague than that but it's that kind of answer that I was looking for when I started this thread.

No promises, rigid deadlines or anything else i'm supposed to have said. These are ideas other people have attempted to say in my name.

hoffman2k wrote:They haven't even had the official release party yet.

I wonder if i'll be getting an invite? Hmmmm.