Ableton Forum

Ha ha... HOLY SHIT, this thread is out of control. Being a theory major, I have not much to add besides the fact that I love theory and I find it to be a lot of fun. I agree, however, with hawk up there (although I use the French 6th chord in about every damned piece I write) that theory can melt your mind after awhile and influence the music your write. Just keep a level head and don't let yourself get overwhelmed... I've written and analyzed a multitude of fugues, sonatas, etc... and I don't think that being able to do so has had a positive affect on my writing. In fact, I find it hurts me when I want to write a simple piece based more on a groove... I just can't help lacing my music with chord changes, sequences, etc...

And don't forget, all this talk about theory is the theory of Western Tonal Harmony, not the theory of music as an all inclusive art form. For instance, I'm studying non western scales and intervals, even scales that have no octaves, i.e. Wendy Carlos' scales: Alpha and Beta. I respect and cherish a lot of western classical music and think the theory is valid and functional, but it is a narrow and somewhat rigid theory. It is not the be all end all as concerns the subject of music. Western Harmony has pretty much been exhausted as far as analysis is concerned, perhaps not in its application, though. But altered tunings, microtunings, these have been marginally experimented with in pop culture and mainstream music. I'm really surprised that given the ability to tune a synth to any scale, create scales using Scala, that these supposedly experimental and audacious electronicos aren't utilizing it much, so I presume.

It's tough though... I've experimented with rags before and quarter tone scales but being raised with western tonality for 26 years, it's hard to wrap my head around something so different... I am a victim of my own training I guess...

jeffplaysmoog wrote:It's tough though... I've experimented with rags before and quarter tone scales but being raised with western tonality for 26 years, it's hard to wrap my head around something so different... I am a victim of my own training I guess...

I hear ya. Quarter tone scales suck, to me they're pretty useless, that is equally tempered quarter tone scales. The ragas are great, but definitely esoteric sounding. I like Indonesian tunings because they sound great with modern electronic leanings-bell tones, plinks and clunks, etc. A good way to start is to go backwards through the historical Western tunings. Go from 12 tone Eq to well tempered scale-play around. Bypass the meantones, they suck, IMHO, and then play around with just tunings, then try leaping to more exotic scales and tunings--doesn't seem so weird sounding after awhile.

I find enough fun with the basics I wrote out. add to that various substitutions, inversions and modes, people have made entire careers out of less.

it's all about tesions and releases....
besides learning the actual theory...experemintaion is key...

Oh yeah, the tension is the key... That's why I really love and support jazz theory, those available tensions are killer. It has been hard for me to go from total classical theory training (I went to a school in upstate NY south of the Eastman school, so all of my teachers were from there) into Jazz, but after I got over that hurdle I was very pleased.

I found this very helpful. You can download a functional demo to check it out:

http://www.risingsoftware.com/musition3/

Tone Deft wrote:so, by now I should be able to tell you to play I VI V IV in F# and you'll know which chords to play, which order to play them in and which notes are in those chords. it will also tell you how you can solo over the song.

jcwillia or others asking about this, are you game to answer the above question? THIS is how you learn, written exercises (and playing.) it's an interesting topic, glad to help, it helps me by writing this stuff out as well. just like answering Live questions teaches me Live.

are you sure you want I VI V VI... and not I IV V vi? I do love the mode mixture though... So are we going to turn this thread into a theory teaching game? You are certainly correct, this is how you learn theory (make sure to do it in ALL keys too).

Tone Deft wrote:...so, by now I should be able to tell you to play I VI V IV in F# and you'll know which chords to play, which order to play them in and which notes are in those chords. it will also tell you how you can solo over the song.

this is REALLY easy for guitar players, a little more difficult to piano players.

Hey Tone Deft, how long did it take you before you could think this way on the fly with your guitar?

Understanding what you laid out earlier in the thread was the most significant thing I ever did theory wise. I happen to find it easier on piano because I have a better view of the 'options'. I play visually. It took about 6 months of playing to get solid with jamming progressions on the fly. Still, I would recommend to anyone to work at understanding these patterns and the 'system' behind building chord progressions this way. It can seem like work, and be less than inspiring, but it is very liberating.

jeffplaysmoog wrote:are you sure you want I VI V VI... and not I IV V vi? I do love the mode mixture though... So are we going to turn this thread into a theory teaching game? You are certainly correct, this is how you learn theory (make sure to do it in ALL keys too).

oh man, I screwed up again!!

I means major
i means minor

THAT'S why I use numbers for the notes and roman numerals for the chords!! damnit! I've been away from this for too long. that's why I like these threads, they make me think about this stuff.

I ii iii IV V vi VII denotes the harmonized chords derived from a major scale.

although I think the VII should be VIIo, the 'o' denoting a diminished chord. the flat 5 in them violates the rules for a major chord.

gjm wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:...so, by now I should be able to tell you to play I VI V IV in F# and you'll know which chords to play, which order to play them in and which notes are in those chords. it will also tell you how you can solo over the song.

this is REALLY easy for guitar players, a little more difficult to piano players.

Hey Tone Deft, how long did it take you before you could think this way on the fly with your guitar?

Understanding what you laid out earlier in the thread was the most significant thing I ever did theory wise. I happen to find it easier on piano because I have a better view of the 'options'. I play visually. It took about 6 months of playing to get solid with jamming progressions on the fly. Still, I would recommend to anyone to work at understanding these patterns and the 'system' behind building chord progressions this way. It can seem like work, and be less than inspiring, but it is very liberating.

I can play C - Am - G - F in open position as a I-vi-V-IV chord progression then just put a capo on ANY fret and it instantly transposes. on keys you need to remember the major scales to track where the black keys fit in making transposing much more difficult.

or I just track the bass note for each chord. learn to find the 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 notes from any one note. beware the b string which is offset.

the guitar is brain dead simple to transpose.

dunno if I ever really learned it, it just comes with the instrument for free.


try the CAGED system to really blow up the fret board. in about a month I went from 1 position pentatonic noodling to the whole fretboard. do that for a few years and you can eventually forget it all and just play by ear. thing is, if you screw up, the right note is almost always just 1 fret away, bend or slide into it.

Tone Deft wrote:
I ii iii IV V vi VII denotes the harmonized chords derived from a major scale.

although I think the VII should be VIIo, the 'o' denoting a diminished chord. the flat 5 in them violates the rules for a major chord.

In major the diatonic chord on the seventh scale degree is designated viiº (lower case because the third is minor, and the degree denoting the diminished fifth as you said).

thanks!! I learned all this stuff from music forums, I need a refresher!