Ableton Forum

Propellerheads CO-DEVELOPED Rewire with Steinberg.

I agree with Machines though that Rewire is looking a bit old in the tooth these days and perhaps time for something new. I certainly have never enjoyed rewiring Reason, and especially Live with it's rewire caveats, i.e. no hosting of 3rd party vsts/aus while in rewire slave mode (not Ableton's fault apparently but a limitation of the protocol, according to the Abes at least).

I tend to just render out audio tracks or loops and import them into a rewire master application if I need to use a seperate program to Live i.e. using Cubase because I prefer mixing 40 channel projects on 2 monitors with arrange on one page and mixer view on the second, or because Live is creaking under the CPU load due to it's real time audio engine whereas Cubase or other linear DAWS are more CPU efficient etc. Rewiring 2 apps and running multichannel audio is a big hit even on modern quad/octa core machines, let alone a creaking 5 year old single core P4 laptop !!!

Looks like record will be awesome for reason users who only use separate applications for audio. I know many people who love reason, and then have to go and use cubase or pro tools or something for recording audio. Now those people can do everything in one place.

For the rest of us who don't use Reason (anymore), there is obviously not a single reason to care.

I now use ableton more but i in the past i was veeeery productive with reason.
Still like it very much expecialy the redrum and DrRex running throught the SCREAM and rewired to ableton.
works and sounds like a charm.

record mixer looks interesting and is a remake off the famous SSL 9000K so thats gonna sound great!
Don,t like the dongle maybe a nogo! fot that reason.
But I think record is gonna be very populair in the biznizz.

For the rest of us who don't use Reason (anymore), there is obviously not a single reason to care.

Touche. +1 = My sentiments exactly as a former Reason user, who long since jumped that ship for better things. Although I have to say that the closed in system of reason and it's devices was definately great on CPU load and able to be run at ultra low latencies because of it's limitations, but I long since deleted Reason 2.5 off my hard drive and am not too sentimental about it these days - it had it's time but even adding this RECORD program as a front end for audio, I prefer my audio and MIDI functionality to be integrated and allow me to choose the expansion, i.e. 3rd party plugins if necessary and Reason/Record, even at a whopping $850 US Dollars combined, doesn't allow that.

does anyone else think that the promo video is hilarious?

the tooth brush thing? !?

reminds me of songsmith

Record is kind of interesting in many ways, but first a question:

Doees anyone here still use Reason 3/4 for trying to make modern dance music? Electro house particularly with its heaviliy pumped sounds? Or actualy does anyone here still try to do anything using modern production techniques in Reason or like me has every here just about given up with it, or maybe just use it for making the odd loop etc because it cant cut it anymore?


So onto my thoughts about Record.

Back when rebirth came up in 97 the acid house scene had been and gone. The 303 sound was well on its way out, but being used in simple techno tracks still. Thats where rebirth came in - the minimum essentials for banging out techno tracks using only a common computer and it just about hit the right time frame particularly for the late cash ins on those sounds.

Reason added loads over the years, lots of quite decent synths and effects, but until reason 3, you still needed post production. Even by Reason 3 modern production technique we know today and take for granted in Live were starting to come into mainstream. Reason was starting to lag. It was during reason 3 that I finally gave up with it and moved to a proper DAW - Cubase SX3, then onto Live 6 - my reason was that I was starting to use hardware synths and audio more and more and rewire was just a complete pain in the ass and there is more to life than spending hours chopping up audio out of context in recycle then switching back to reason to load it in, or hacking about with audio in samplers that can only play it from the start. I guessthis is the same story with most other people - eventually you just want to make music and so gave up with it entirely, especially with your new found freedom of not only wirking with audio and you hardware synths and vocals, guitars etc, but also being abel to just download/buy a plugin to try something new etc.

Reason 4 adding a load of cool new stuff - well it would have been had it arrive whhen reason 3 did, but by then its way too little and way too late. Sure Thor is a cool synth, but by then the rest of the dance scene wanted the sound character of real analog synths heavily pumped baselines, bit crushers, and wacky severely abused chorus and delay fx. reason is now way behind the curve. Sure you can vaguely approximate siome of this in R4, but the rest of the world just plugin in a moog/SE/DSI/Virus hardware synth and load up some suitable plugins and just get on with it.

In short - Reason that came out of Rebirth has been killed by it slow product cycles and actually no longer able to keep up with rapidly changing needs of its original core user base.

Most guitar bands on the other hand havnt really changed in 30 years. Singer/song writers mostly still use a mic and a piano or a mic and a guitar. Production technques for most havn't changed much in 30 years, just the tools. by now Propellersheads are in bed with Line 6 as well so it makes sense for a total shift in target market - accept that you cant keep with with the needs of dance music and pop with a closed system and shift focus to the arena where users typically use hardware porta studio type devices - actually just as they did 20 years ago. then cassette tape based, now digital.

So just as reason was the computer version of a synth workstation, record is the computer version of a porta-studio. Neither are a DAW and neither can ever compete with a DAW while they remain closed systems.

I think given where they are and how slowly they move which is basically why they have pissed off so many of us ex-reason user big time, it makes sense to focus on a much more slowly evolving market place.

The bigggest plus point to record as a tool has to be the new time stretch algorythm. If you have heard its demos, then I think you cant fail to be hugely impressed by it. So what did they do with it? While the rest of us are immediately thinking of its massive potential for pitch correction, DJing, Live style micro tempo adjustments - ie warping, remixing abuse etc, they just use it for enabling broad tempo changes only - Nice, but Duh. So lets get this straight, they have created a new tool for singer/songer writers with really excellent pitch shting but missing a key tool that alot of wannabes and actually some of the professionasl I know who write for TV etc - namely very high quality pitch correction and timing correction. The actual tempo is something that the engineers deal with later for the TV lot when they fine tune it to match with the final cut video.

In time honoured Propellerheads fashion, I guess they will get around to properly exploiting their new time stretch in about 5 years or so... when even the nastiest pitch shifter in common use by that time will be way way better then the current excellent one in Record and will include artifact free formant shift compensation too which no doubt the pitch shifter in record doesnt and wont for a very long time.

Most singer/songriters I know tend to favour using Celemony tools - Melodyne etc for precisely this reason. They cant be bothered with a DAW or a mixer, or stack of effects because its too complicated and actually distracts them from their simple goal of writing a song - ie melody and lyrics. Large format mixing console with millions of knobs? Ugh - even those who actually spend alot of time in commercial studios - they hate all that - its the mix engineers job.

I can see however see this selling by the truck load just as Reason did. BTW - guitarist who use this are going to get really pissed off when they find out that the only way to get a deent collection of amp and cab models is to also buy a Line 6 hardware device to transfer the models into Record from. I guess eventually there will be another way to purchase a useful collection of models on par with a real Pod/Bass Pod rather than the miserable in-the-box collection.

Khazul wrote:does anyone here still try to do anything using modern production techniques in Reason

I use reason as an instrument. I don't want it to be a complete DAW (I've got Live8 for this) with sample mangling capabilities (I've got renoise and pure data for this). It is just not a one-in-all solution and I don't get why everybody thinks, it should be. You don't complain, that a rhodes piano can't play drum sounds, do you?
The closed system supports rock solid stability and extremely low CPU usage. I am a software developer myself and I have absolutly NO IDEA, how in the name of god they achieve such a DSP with such low usage of CPU.

The problem is, that people are used to "open vst -> load preset -> hit C3 -> collect the remains of your brain from the surrounding walls". Reason is not like that. You actually have to know something about sound modelling and DSP to get the result you want. I think, that's why a lot of people tend to see it as a toy.

Beware, I am not a fanboy. I see Reasons downfalls very clearly. I just don't get why everybody is so concerned about a business model that's apperently not for them.
Use Reason as an instrument and be happy - or leave it and be happy, too. It's that simple.

Reason is far from "fail" and for a lot of people it is still an invaluable sound design tool and instrument. That's not a bad thing in my opinion.

Tone Deft wrote:

robtronik wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:I wrote it was a 'niche audience.'
and it could only compare to Live 'as far as total custom user tweakability.' they have card they can play with Reaktor.

Its funny when people say this "niche audience" thing.

I used to work for Props. I saw the sales data for the industry. Reason is the number one selling MI software of its type. At the time its sales were only rivaled by NI's suite of products vs. Props one product.

MI software? "its type" you have to narrow your argument down to a specific type of software for it to hold up. weak.

Reason appeals to a much broader base of users that Live does. Live is a great product and is adding tons of useful features all the time, but don't forget that Live is really the niche product for niche users that is growing out of that space.

bunch of BULLSHIT. last I checked musicians actually play instruments. you cannot record audio into Reason, it's for a SMALL niche of music called electronica. growing out of that space? you're way too impressed that they finally figured out how to record audio.

Reason started out as a broad appeal to lots of music makers - and is only increasing its suite of tools via Record. I don't know if its still the number one selling software in the DAW, MI software space, but its clearly not a niche product for niche users.

rob.

it's a niche product for people that make electronic music. people have been making music for thousands of years. this f-ing electronic music people are making only represents a small area of music. even in terms of sales electronic music is small. I hate that these forums are so focused on electronic music, there's a LOT more out there than a bleeps and bloops.


I appreciate your experience but your scope is incredibly limited.

The word niche was used in association with Reason which flies in the face of sales data against other software of its type. Sorry if that wasn't clear - but the numbers pretty much say it all. Or did when I had access to them... not much has changed in the interim, however NI is pretty damn strong given that it has a ton of products and a bigger revenue stream because of their suite of tools.

More people buy reason than the other software of its type (logic, live, protools, etc.) - and those are all DAWs too.

People make all kinds of music with Reason - the fact that that you think its just for making electronic music means you don't understand much about its users or how its used across the board. Hip Hop, Rock, etc. Its all being done with Reason - and a lot of it in association with other tools alongside it. Its simplicity is what draws people to it.

Your whole point about artists playing instruments - yes, they do. That's why you hook up a MIDI keyboard and play keys - from, let's say the Abbey Road refill. Or the synths included. I don't understand your argument there - especially when someone rewires Reason with the parts included that they've played and then record vocals - or an electric guitar alongside the composition created in Reason...

I think you are being way too critical here. Its a very popular piece of software - and its a mistake to call it niche against the other types of software of its type. Its metaphor is much more easily understood than Live.

Open up both and try to explain the interface to a newbie - they will understand the metaphor more easily than Live at first because you can map the usage to a workflow that mirrors what has been done for decades in the recording process.

But, again, I'm not arguing that its better, just different - and more widely used than the other music software solutions that are out there. BTW, I've always thought the perfect pairing for anyone starting out in music creation/production was Live and Reason rewired together.

You can do just about anything imaginable with that set up. Record however changes that a bit for the more traditional musician since they have a choice to work with an integrated solution with Reason.

I'll have to use it before I can decide for myself which is best. I'm just glad there are options for us to chose from.

.02,

rob.

my whole argument is that Reason is not a DAW.

most of the world does NOT listen to electronic music, it's a less popular genre of music.

as a guitar player (or drummer or horns player or vocalist etc.) what the hell would I do with Reason? jam along with it? I would need a third party application to record my guitar, OR THEIR NEW SOFTWARE.

the only way to play Reason is with a keyboard, until now.

your view on recording software and what the world of music is made of is totally myopic.


you didn't want to compare Reason to Live but it's safe to say that Live is waaay better than Reason. how many albums have ever been done in Reason?

Tone Deft wrote:my whole argument is that Reason is not a DAW.

most of the world does NOT listen to electronic music, it's a less popular genre of music.

as a guitar player (or drummer or horns player or vocalist etc.) what the hell would I do with Reason? jam along with it? I would need a third party application to record my guitar, OR THEIR NEW SOFTWARE.

the only way to play Reason is with a keyboard, until now.

your view on recording software and what the world of music is made of is totally myopic.


you didn't want to compare Reason to Live but it's safe to say that Live is waaay better than Reason. how many albums have ever been done in Reason?

Over the years that it has been out? An unbelievably high amount, especially when used in conjunction with a DAW.

I'm not really sure what you are pointing out now - my post was really about Reason being classified as a niche product. Its not. It is used to teach students how to play music, used in all kinds of ways useful to all kinds of musicians, etc. And it has been for years - and the sales data is there to prove it.

That's all I was saying. Live started out as a niche product - in its sales AND use (live performance). Its now fairly full featured piece of software for non-niche use. But that's how the two have evolved. I used both since version 1.0 (Reason) and Live (1.5) and its pretty clear that their functional histories have informed their adoption and use.

Myopic? I don't think so. I'm referencing numbers that I've seen, my history working in the market for a bit of time, and access to the many different types of users who do use the tools.

So, take it or leave it, but Reason is anything but a niche product. And with Record, it only becomes more easily adopted by those getting into music production for the first time. Now more than ever (assuming Record is as good as they are claiming it is to use, etc.)

.02,

rob.

"used to teach students"

"getting into music production for the first time"

you're still pointing out how trite Reason is without acknowledging it.

OK, even with Record, you cannot use third party plug ins with Reason. therefore it's a completely amateur product. you're limited to the tools available. it's impossible to substitute their mastering effects for better ones.

I don't care about the numbers you saw, your argument is falling far short of backing that up.

Reason is a toy for mouse jockies. or an add-on suite of instruments for people who already have a DAW.

Tone Deft wrote:"used to teach students"

"getting into music production for the first time"

you're still pointing out how trite Reason is without acknowledging it.

OK, even with Record, you cannot use third party plug ins with Reason. therefore it's a completely amateur product. you're limited to the tools available. it's impossible to substitute their mastering effects for better ones.

I don't care about the numbers you saw, your argument is falling far short of backing that up.

Reason is a toy for mouse jockies. or an add-on suite of instruments for people who already have a DAW.

Easy to use does not equal trite.

Not sure where you came up with that equation. The iPod is easy to use and I wouldn't call it trite against the myriad of MP3 players with a ton of other functions that the iPod didn't have when it was released.

I also don't agree that extensibility equates better. Or usable. Or more effective.

What matters is whether it is the right tool for the right job. The fact that a lot of tools (DAW and otherwise) open themselves up to extensibility is an admission that they don't have all the features necessary to handle everything in the creative/production process.

With Reason - you get just enough to go from A to Z (again, minus recording). Can you go from A to Z in the most pristine, perfectly rendered and mixed down version of your song after importing any recorded pieces? Of course not. But neither can you using any DAW on the market without extending its functions with additional pieces of software (i.e. software instruments, mastering tools, etc.).

Just like the other pieces of software in comparison, Reason can (and should be) extended as well - it being a Rewired slave. So, again, I don't see any arguments proving that Reason is trite. Its just your opinion that flies in the face of how its used by musicians/artists/producers alike.

Reason has never been a DAW. Never will be. Its a music production tool - not a recording device. Now that's changed with Record (obviously).

In any case, you believe what you believe... I'm not gonna change your opinion on it. But that's okay - its just software. And extremely well written and widely adopted at that.

carry on,

rob.

I never wrote that it was easy to use. I used to use it, never got along with it. I thought the midi editing was way too cramped and highly limited. also, that f-ing cutesy cable routing on the back is totally powerful but a totally messy way to organize your ideas.

I also don't agree that extensibility equates better. Or usable. Or more effective.
pfft totally!! with Live if you don't like the mastering plug ins you can buy Waves plug ins and use those. if a program isn't extensible you're stuck with only what it has to offer. this couldn't be more obvious to me. then you go on to write
Reason can (and should be) extended as well
uhhh...

With Reason - you get just enough to go from A to Z (again, minus recording)
minus recording. yeah, who records anyway?? mouse jockies.


dunno, just talking shop. I could probably be sold on Reason but I'm trying to get away from always looking at synths for sounds, it's not my mojo.

I know you know your shit as a rep for the company, DJ, Producer and forum whore. just talking shop. you're right, we're not going to convince each other. TBH I haven't used Reason since 2.5 (or 2.0?) and can't bring much to the conversation than impressions of the product from years ago and why I don't use it (I'm more guitar oriented.)

cheers!

Tone Deft wrote:TBH I haven't used Reason since 2.5 (or 2.0?) and can't bring much to the conversation than impressions of the product from years ago and why I don't use it (I'm more guitar oriented.)

Youtube clip, or you're a mouse jockey!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k437pkDxriA