Ableton Forum

hurlingdervish wrote:and you COMPLETELY ignored my point for the third time

how can some engineer ruin the sound of a band who writes with dynamic range?

thats not going to happen!

if they limited it, it would kill their sound.

that is done today to hundreds of albums, that is what we discuss... that it has to stop.

the amount of people who don't destroy music with 'wrong' mastering are less and less and albums that sound good and have dynamic are less and less.
and the majority of consumers is accepting that, opposite they all to often think it's a cool sound, that distorted loud, squashed mess.

but its mostly to bands that have the same volume through out the entire song

most pop rock and pop punk is written to have the same feel of the chorus duplicated three times over....dynamic range would not even come close to improving this error in song writing

hurlingdervish wrote:but its mostly to bands that have the same volume through out the entire song

most pop rock and pop punk is written to have the same feel of the chorus duplicated three times over....dynamic range would not even come close to improving this error in song writing

unfortunately not just only to those... 'wrong' mastering is common and messing up all sorts of music.

that is why you have today associations of engineers fighting that 'trend' that destroys music. like 'stop the loudness war'

maybe those artists who care enough about their sound should hover over the engineer then at all times and/or choose a label that doesn't rape their sound

Does anyone actually have any examples where labels have chosen to brickwall something against the artist's wishes?

All I've heard from ME's is how it's the artist that want volume over quality, but everyone who isn't an ME always mentions labels?


To be honest, if Waves L3 existed in the 60's, people would have used it to brickwall stuff.

hurlingdervish wrote:maybe those artists who care enough about their sound should hover over the engineer then at all times and/or choose a label that doesn't rape their sound

yeah, it is absolutely not impossible to choose the mix engineer and mastering engineer that shares your vision on the product, respectively respects the input from the artist side...

i think tarekith said it, it's exactly about changing the attitude and start to work in circles that do it different.

Sage wrote:Does anyone actually have any examples where labels have chosen to brickwall something against the artist's wishes?

All I've heard from ME's is how it's the artist that want volume over quality, but everyone who isn't an ME always mentions labels?


To be honest, if Waves L3 existed in the 60's, people would have used it to brickwall stuff.

from what i know and experienced myself it's definitely more the artists not seem to understand and pushing the limits way over the top.
also labels do that in hope and expectation of higher sales figures, because there product 'screams out' and kids with iPODs go 'wow yeah!' <<< blast!

i would not have an example of an engineer working negatively against an artist in that respect, but i can figure it probably exists, too

if you want an example of the ME working against the artist just look at the 80's

NO, YOU MUST USE THE LINNDRUM.

It's silly saying peopple would have used L3's in the 60s. I mean, digital technology did not exist and there was no loudness war because cutting vinyl too hot would lead to the cutting stylus wrecking the master vinyl. I don't think it's any coincidence that Led Zeppelin on vinyl sounds HOT and the remastered CDs NOT.

Sage, you need to read about radio compressors from mastering guru Bob Katz's book 'Mastering Audio : The Art and The Science (2nd edition)' (focal press). Louder is definately not always 'aggressive' or 'punchy' louder, sometimes it is suckage which actually destroys punchiness.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=A0u4oWV ... q=&f=false

this is an excerpt - the parts on how FM radio emphasises certain frequencies and the conclusion are the most pertinent.

Sage, you need to read about radio compressors from mastering guru Bob Katz's book 'Mastering Audio : The Art and The Science (2nd edition)' (focal press). Louder is definately not always 'aggressive' or 'punchy' louder, sometimes it is suckage which actually destroys punchiness.

+1 use a jünger compressor, e.g. for music production... AARRRGGGHHHHH.

leedsquietman wrote:It's silly saying peopple would have used L3's in the 60s. I mean, digital technology did not exist and there was no loudness war because cutting vinyl too hot would lead to the cutting stylus wrecking the master vinyl. I don't think it's any coincidence that Led Zeppelin on vinyl sounds HOT and the remastered CDs NOT.

I know digital technology didn't exist, my point was, if it did...

Well it's an interesting idea, but I guess we'll never know

One thing I do know - technology isn't always for the better - which is why people are so keen to snap up retro gear like Moogs and vintage analogue synths (saw a battered Jupiter 8 go for $8000 on ebay not too long ago), original 808s and 909s, Mellotrons etc.

The Beatles music sounds great to me as it is, although they might well have used Loop CDs, Live in Session View and Launchpad knowing how they liked to push boundaries.

leedsquietman wrote:Well it's an interesting idea, but I guess we'll never know

One thing I do know - technology isn't always for the better - which is why people are so keen to snap up retro gear like Moogs and vintage analogue synths (saw a battered Jupiter 8 go for $8000 on ebay not too long ago), original 808s and 909s, Mellotrons etc.

The Beatles music sounds great to me as it is, although they might well have used Loop CDs, Live in Session View and Launchpad knowing how they liked to push boundaries.

yea on the creative side the classic bands would have definitely snatched up ableton

i remember Pink Floyd getting interviewed with some modular kit, and one of em was like "this is great...people can just make tunes and not be bothered!"

Another aspect is that the mastering level also can influence the content, for example it's quite hard to build up a crescendo on the dance floor with a track that sounds 'maximal' from the beginning. I discussed this issue with a DJ friend lately, a lot of the modern techno tracks never really delivers a real break because you can't increase the signal further, it's too heavily compressed, it almost sounds weaker than the 'verse'.

Can you recommend a real HIFI label?