Ableton Forum

The shit ive heard in aa and anger management groups would make your head spin. I just took in what I could that applied to my life and tried to better my life. Those groups were geared towards helping the worst case senarios and you might not be in that category so as someone else said dont take their word as gospel. I still advise giving them a proper look through and an honest attempt at helping yourself.

in 07 I would binge drink for days sometimes being drunk from friday afternoon to monday morning. Now I drink very infrequently and when I do its usually 2-4 drinks. I cant tell you how much better I feel and how much my life has improved.

beats me wrote: Also a lot of people sharing in the meetings seem to be cases of the extreme. One of the steps is admitting you've hit bottom which I could probably say I've hit my bottom, but by comparison to some of these stories I feel like I'm looking down and bottom is nowhere in sight.

thing to maybe try: Ask a lot of those dudes how long it was between when they went to their first meeting and when they actually became sober. I went to my first or second meeting and like you heard all these stories and thought shit I'm not that bad, I've never woken up and had a drink by the bed or anything like that, and I'd throw up WELL before TWO bottles of vodka!!!.... but then I asked someone how long after your first meeting did you get sober, and he said something like 3 years. Thing to remember is it's progressive, and taking the first step at your stage means you already know its there if things start getting worse...

I'm still not sure about AA... I probably need it more than anyone, but I've actually been put on a program recently through a hospital... I haven't even done that yet, but not because I gave up on it, but because I went down to the country recently to spend some time with this old hippy dude who's spend most of his life studying yoga, much of that from the source in India, and I recorded him playing sitar, singing and he gave me some yoga practices and put me on a different kind of routine, including telling me that I can have no more than 3 beers a day, then once a month I can go over that, and I can't drink at all after my evening meal. The really cool thing about this approach is he's more about showing me that I actually already have control over all aspects of my life, I just need to rediscover this power in myself.

There's a lot more to my story than I'm prepared to go into here, but a lot of you kind of know me by now and have at least followed some of the journey. Point is it's a total lifestyle thing and everyone deals with it differently.

Last time I went to an AA meeting it was really shit and full of old people who were using it as some kind of crutch to blame all of their personality flaws on - like people who hadn't drank in 20 years still talking about how they did this thing "because they are an alcoholic".... it really put me off and I decided I needed a different approach. Plus, there are more things to deal with than just alcohol abuse.

Yoga is proving to be perfect. It has bailed be out in the past, then it started to lose its power, but now I've been re-inspired by a new teacher who is much more like me with a lot of similar background, and it seems to have made all the difference.

alex.the.forge wrote:

beats me wrote: Also a lot of people sharing in the meetings seem to be cases of the extreme. One of the steps is admitting you've hit bottom which I could probably say I've hit my bottom, but by comparison to some of these stories I feel like I'm looking down and bottom is nowhere in sight.

thing to maybe try: Ask a lot of those dudes how long it was between when they went to their first meeting and when they actually became sober. I went to my first or second meeting and like you heard all these stories and thought shit I'm not that bad, I've never woken up and had a drink by the bed or anything like that, and I'd throw up WELL before TWO bottles of vodka!!!.... but then I asked someone how long after your first meeting did you get sober, and he said something like 3 years. Thing to remember is it's progressive, and taking the first step at your stage means you already know its there if things start getting worse...

I'm still not sure about AA... I probably need it more than anyone, but I've actually been put on a program recently through a hospital... I haven't even done that yet, but not because I gave up on it, but because I went down to the country recently to spend some time with this old hippy dude who's spend most of his life studying yoga, much of that from the source in India, and I recorded him playing sitar, singing and he gave me some yoga practices and put me on a different kind of routine, including telling me that I can have no more than 3 beers a day, then once a month I can go over that, and I can't drink at all after my evening meal. The really cool thing about this approach is he's more about showing me that I actually already have control over all aspects of my life, I just need to rediscover this power in myself.

There's a lot more to my story than I'm prepared to go into here, but a lot of you kind of know me by now and have at least followed some of the journey. Point is it's a total lifestyle thing and everyone deals with it differently.

Last time I went to an AA meeting it was really shit and full of old people who were using it as some kind of crutch to blame all of their personality flaws on - like people who hadn't drank in 20 years still talking about how they did this thing "because they are an alcoholic".... it really put me off and I decided I needed a different approach. Plus, there are more things to deal with than just alcohol abuse.

Yoga is proving to be perfect. It has bailed be out in the past, then it started to lose its power, but now I've been re-inspired by a new teacher who is much more like me with a lot of similar background, and it seems to have made all the difference.

Right on. There are many ways to skin a cat and AA does kind of seem like you're doing it with a chainsaw if you adhere strictly to their guidelines.

One of the first things I noticed when I decided to stop was advertisements for alcohol and media and people talking about alcohol, not in an AA way, but in a "Woohoo I'm fucked up, buddy!" way. Things you don't really give a second thought to when you also enjoy a drink or 12 from time to time.

There's been a few "I'm drunk" threads or responses on here by people but it's not out of control. You just notice them more when you aren't drinking, but almost every time when somebody is saying they are wasted or are going to get wasted, and even when something bad happens, the potential seriousness of the situation really isn't mentioned. It's like something that is perfectly fine to joke about. That doesn't mean every person that gets wasted has a huge drinking problem, but that there are a lot of people that crack jokes or even seem proud of their drunk behavior when they should probably take a little more serious look at it. Hell, I've even glamorized my drunk exploits like they're some benchmark of success.

I've seen you chime in on the alcohol and drug topics but not really with anything I thought was alarming. We live in a society where it's perfectly acceptable to drink and I would almost say acceptable to get wasted. So it really comes down to the individual to decide when it's a problem in their life and it doesn't always have to reach the extremes you hear about in AA to convince you.

beats me wrote: There are many ways to skin a cat and AA does kind of seem like you're doing it with a chainsaw if you adhere strictly to their guidelines.
.

one thing I will say though, is that I have heard A LOT of people talk about how it's one of the most effective ways out there of stopping if you really want to stop.

I'm not sure I really want to stop - I'm one of those people that really enjoys moderate drinking, but when it becomes a problem is when I start to use it as a tool of oblivion for escaping from life's shittiness, or when I get into that late night buzz of making music with beer and weed and going OVER the top.... and that probably happens a bit too often.... sometimes it can be a fucken amazing experience writing a tune like that and it's a hard buzz to tear myself away from, but the next day I usually feel like shit, and it means I can't do any more music that next day and it's a bit of a write off. But I actually think that's more to do with the late nights, depending on what I drink. Some drinks if I go to bed early don't give me any bad hangover at all, others make me feel shit before I even get to bed - I think certain preservatives have a lot to do with it.

When Michael Caine was interviewed by Michael Parkinson, Parky asked him if he liked a drink and Caine's response was "I don't ever want to be told I can't have a glass of really good wine", and that's how I feel. I would much rather just learn to control it. But AA aren't into that, they see it as a disease and if you have it you can't drink at all.

I think life situation has a lot to do with it. I've been in a pretty weird relationship for a long time now and I know it is the biggest creator of those oblivion moments, but it's really not that easy to extract myself from it.

macmurphy wrote: I developed, and still have, a massive desire to eat tuna at any available opportunity.

You have turned into a great white shark.

It's a common side effect from stopping the drink.

alex.the.forge wrote:

beats me wrote: There are many ways to skin a cat and AA does kind of seem like you're doing it with a chainsaw if you adhere strictly to their guidelines.
.

one thing I will say though, is that I have heard A LOT of people talk about how it's one of the most effective ways out there of stopping if you really want to stop.

I'm not sure I really want to stop - I'm one of those people that really enjoys moderate drinking, but when it becomes a problem is when I start to use it as a tool of oblivion for escaping from life's shittiness, or when I get into that late night buzz of making music with beer and weed and going OVER the top.... and that probably happens a bit too often.... sometimes it can be a fucken amazing experience writing a tune like that and it's a hard buzz to tear myself away from, but the next day I usually feel like shit, and it means I can't do any more music that next day and it's a bit of a write off. But I actually think that's more to do with the late nights, depending on what I drink. Some drinks if I go to bed early don't give me any bad hangover at all, others make me feel shit before I even get to bed - I think certain preservatives have a lot to do with it.

When Michael Caine was interviewed by Michael Parkinson, Parky asked him if he liked a drink and Caine's response was "I don't ever want to be told I can't have a glass of really good wine", and that's how I feel. I would much rather just learn to control it. But AA aren't into that, they see it as a disease and if you have it you can't drink at all.

I think life situation has a lot to do with it. I've been in a pretty weird relationship for a long time now and I know it is the biggest creator of those oblivion moments, but it's really not that easy to extract myself from it.

The only creativity I get while under the influence of anything is grandiose ideas and opinions. But music, nothing. My attention span is far too short to focus on anything when I'm in that state. The only time it might help with music is when I'm doing a DJ gig or live performance but I haven't done either in a long time.

I can't really say I enjoy alcohol in the sense of sipping wine or anything like that. It's all about reaching that mental state to me. Sometimes when I just have a drink or 2 and that's it for responsible reasons I sometimes get a small sense of anxiety that I can't go to the next drink and the next.

I usually don't drink when things are genuinely bad. I'm not talking frustrating day at work bad, but bigger picture bad, because I know once the buzz wears off the depression will be amplified and might push me over the edge. I usually drink when things are comfortable to good, but that has it's own problems. It tends to put my life in a state of suspended animation where things could either get bad or at the very least not move forward. Things could always get better and why ruin a good thing.

I also don't have a spouse or kids, and I have much respect for the people who do, both for the accomplishment and the challenges, but I usually see these people at some point complain they have no free time or mental space to themselves, and here's this a-hole in CA with all that choosing to spend most of that time getting wasted and accomplishing nothing.

Last night I crashed out about 9 PM after watching a couple hours of music production tutorial videos and now I'm up at 6 AM doing laundry. A month ago I would have been up until 3 AM listening to people who made it in music that I've heard a million times and then spending all of today in bed with a throbbing headache but thinking it's ok because a lot of my friends are doing the same, bonded in stupid. But where are we going to be 10 or 20 years from now if we just continue that pattern? I don't want to be exactly where I am now or worse. I want to take the blessings I have now and build on them, not take them for granted and destroy them.

...this conversation is weird...

breaking habbits is hard... but what I don't get is ..
why do you look to other people in the first place..
all you guys go ... "yeah my friends bla bla... and aa meetings blabla"...
you already had enough sense to realize that lifestyle wasn't working for you..
if you think about it logically when you're in a bar..
you'd have no problem ordering orange juice while your friends make their face numb..
and still enjoy yourself and have some laughs...
what is this black/white approach to things...? imo it's bad philosophy...
why do you wish to cut out of your life ...something you used to enjoy ? (before it became a habit)
was it that intoxicating ?! you just couldn't get enough???

(btw Heroin and Cocaine /Opium class are a whole different story altogether...
these people really need professional support.. and constant care..
the black hole is always sucking..
and they usually have to develop a different less corruptive habbit )

I'm not belittling anyones problems here but...
seriously...
...I know about the 'slippery slope'.. but.. a person should be able to trust himself...to get out of his downs..
what I'm saying is ...treat yourselves... only you have the power to anyways..others can help...
(but I'd rather it be someone I know/love/trust)

discipline...and moderation... are the only answers.. seek those

peace

UKRuss wrote:

macmurphy wrote: I developed, and still have, a massive desire to eat tuna at any available opportunity.

You have turned into a great white shark.

It's a common side effect from stopping the drink.

3dot... wrote:...this conversation is weird...

breaking habbits is hard... but what I don't get is ..
why do you look to other people in the first place..
all you guys go ... "yeah my friends bla bla... and aa meetings blabla"...
you already had enough sense to realize that lifestyle wasn't working for you..
if you think about it logically when you're in a bar..
you'd have no problem ordering orange juice while your friends make their face numb..
and still enjoy yourself and have some laughs...
what is this black/white approach to things...? imo it's bad philosophy...
why do you wish to cut out of your life ...something you used to enjoy ? (before it became a habit)
was it that intoxicating ?! you just couldn't get enough???

(btw Heroin and Cocaine /Opium class are a whole different story altogether...
these people really need professional support.. and constant care..
the black hole is always sucking..
and they usually have to develop a different less corruptive habbit )

I'm not belittling anyones problems here but...
seriously...
...I know about the 'slippery slope'.. but.. a person should be able to trust himself...to get out of his downs..
what I'm saying is ...treat yourselves... only you have the power to anyways..others can help...
(but I'd rather it be someone I know/love/trust)

discipline...and moderation... are the only answers.. seek those

peace

So you believe that addiction isn't a legitimate thing or just a term people loosely throw around to defend or justify their behavior? That all these situations can be solved simply with self imposed discipline and moderation? You don't think human connections can either help with these situations or make them worse?

Wow. Which terminator model are you?

3dot... wrote:

UKRuss wrote:

macmurphy wrote: I developed, and still have, a massive desire to eat tuna at any available opportunity.

You have turned into a great white shark.

It's a common side effect from stopping the drink.

+1

3dot... wrote:..... a person should be able to trust himself...to get out of his downs..

if it was that simple for everybody then no one would have any problems ever.

but life is one great big load of bollocks from start to finish, and we spend the whole time doing our own heads in with shit that is totally unneccessary

Noam Chomsky said he gets letters from people all the time saying they are unhappy with the way things are in the world and asking him what they can do about it, and he said these letters are only ever from people in rich countries with the wealth to achieve anything, the people in the poor countries just tell him what they ARE doing.

beats me wrote: So you believe that addiction isn't a legitimate thing or just a term people loosely throw around to defend or justify their behavior? That all these situations can be solved simply with self imposed discipline and moderation? You don't think human connections can either help with these situations or make them worse?

Wow. Which terminator model are you?

...now... addictions are real.. and are necessary...
I see it like a relationship/marriage ... you've been with each other a few yrs...most intimate..
you almost don't recognize yourself without your 'other'...
then you break up cuz you don't like yourself that way...(what you've evolved into..)
then comes the pain and suffering...

sure... right after the breakup.. it'll be a bad idea if you meet up too often...
you can then be sucked into the loop once again...
but... 2 years after.. you'll have fun meeting up with her from time to time.. and even the occasional sex.

basically what I'm saying
IT'S HARD !...no shit..
but life is hard ..no shit..

what I meant is that I think you're missing the point...

consciously or subconsciously... you're trying to better your life... that is a good sign.. you have a will..
try to be more conscious ... know your limits..
learn to enjoy a good glass of beer/wine .. without the thought of continuing that event into your day to day..

use it to upgrade yourself... not downgrade yourself..
(I feel the same way about diets...)

if being dependent on others (or others lifestyle or views) got you there in the first place..
I'd try to get rid of THAT bad habit.
which in turn will make you stronger. and more confident in yourself.
AA makes you dependent on AA and gives you excuses.. and puts you into molds..
as if one's person addiction is the same illness as another..

I'm not a terminator man... just a computer-being.. and I have many bugs/vices which I try and deal with
these are only my personal opinions ..I'd tried hard not to post but couldn't fight it eventually (addiction?!)
you can take'm or leave..

3dot... wrote:

beats me wrote: So you believe that addiction isn't a legitimate thing or just a term people loosely throw around to defend or justify their behavior? That all these situations can be solved simply with self imposed discipline and moderation? You don't think human connections can either help with these situations or make them worse?

Wow. Which terminator model are you?

...now... addictions are real.. and are necessary...
I see it like a relationship/marriage ... you've been with each other a few yrs...most intimate..
you almost don't recognize yourself without your 'other'...
then you break up cuz you don't like yourself that way...(what you've evolved into..)
then comes the pain and suffering...

sure... right after the breakup.. it'll be a bad idea if you meet up too often...
you can then be sucked into the loop once again...
but... 2 years after.. you'll have fun meeting up with her from time to time.. and even the occasional sex.

basically what I'm saying
IT'S HARD !...no shit..
but life is hard ..no shit..

what I meant is that I think you're missing the point...

consciously or subconsciously... you're trying to better your life... that is a good sign.. you have a will..
try to be more conscious ... know your limits..
learn to enjoy a good glass of beer/wine .. without the thought of continuing that event into your day to day..

use it to upgrade yourself... not downgrade yourself..
(I feel the same way about diets...)

if being dependent on others (or others lifestyle or views) got you there in the first place..
I'd try to get rid of THAT bad habit.
which in turn will make you stronger. and more confident in yourself.
AA makes you dependent on AA and gives you excuses.. and puts you into molds..
as if one's person addiction is the same illness as another..

I'm not a terminator man... just a computer-being.. and I have many bugs/vices which I try and deal with
these are only my personal opinions ..I'd tried hard not to post but couldn't fight it eventually (addiction?!)
you can take'm or leave..

On one level the comparison to intimate relationships is a bad one because people are unpredictable in comparison to the predictable reaction somebody has to drugs or alcohol with a long enough history. But on another level, that's another "addiction" I removed myself from several years ago because if you were going to tally up my vices of the past and their affects on me then intimate relationships have done more damage than drugs or alcohol. And while I did eventually reach the emotional level of just saying "It's this bullshit again, ride it out", I also reached the level of not wanting to put myself there in the first place, and when I look at the world outside myself in regards to intimate relationships I see things getting worse, not better. We've reached a level of unprecedented selfishness that isn't going to slow down any time soon. I can reflect on the good times of past relationships but then fast forward to the relatively trivial reasons why things didn't last and the complete lack of understanding or reasonable compromise on their end. I'm content with my decision on that one.

Other than my roommate who is also my friend I spend a lot of time entertaining myself by myself. I'm not looking to replace 24/7 party friends with 24/7 friends who don't drink or do drugs, but I also don't want to live my life thinking that chatting with people on the Internet is being out there and enjoying life. It's just a fact that when you try to do things sober your partying friends' support is just mostly going to be verbal because they don't want to be sober, don't know how to do things sober, or feel like you're a big buzz kill because you're sober.

UKRuss wrote:

macmurphy wrote: I developed, and still have, a massive desire to eat tuna at any available opportunity.

You have turned into a great white shark.

It's a common side effect from stopping the drink.

I've always been fond of sharks.

Interesting...

beats me wrote:

3dot... wrote:

beats me wrote: So you believe that addiction isn't a legitimate thing or just a term people loosely throw around to defend or justify their behavior? That all these situations can be solved simply with self imposed discipline and moderation? You don't think human connections can either help with these situations or make them worse?

Wow. Which terminator model are you?

...now... addictions are real.. and are necessary...
I see it like a relationship/marriage ... you've been with each other a few yrs...most intimate..
you almost don't recognize yourself without your 'other'...
then you break up cuz you don't like yourself that way...(what you've evolved into..)
then comes the pain and suffering...

sure... right after the breakup.. it'll be a bad idea if you meet up too often...
you can then be sucked into the loop once again...
but... 2 years after.. you'll have fun meeting up with her from time to time.. and even the occasional sex.

basically what I'm saying
IT'S HARD !...no shit..
but life is hard ..no shit..

what I meant is that I think you're missing the point...

consciously or subconsciously... you're trying to better your life... that is a good sign.. you have a will..
try to be more conscious ... know your limits..
learn to enjoy a good glass of beer/wine .. without the thought of continuing that event into your day to day..

use it to upgrade yourself... not downgrade yourself..
(I feel the same way about diets...)

if being dependent on others (or others lifestyle or views) got you there in the first place..
I'd try to get rid of THAT bad habit.
which in turn will make you stronger. and more confident in yourself.
AA makes you dependent on AA and gives you excuses.. and puts you into molds..
as if one's person addiction is the same illness as another..

I'm not a terminator man... just a computer-being.. and I have many bugs/vices which I try and deal with
these are only my personal opinions ..I'd tried hard not to post but couldn't fight it eventually (addiction?!)
you can take'm or leave..

On one level the comparison to intimate relationships is a bad one because people are unpredictable in comparison to the predictable reaction somebody has to drugs or alcohol with a long enough history. But on another level, that's another "addiction" I removed myself from several years ago because if you were going to tally up my vices of the past and their affects on me then intimate relationships have done more damage than drugs or alcohol. And while I did eventually reach the emotional level of just saying "It's this bullshit again, ride it out", I also reached the level of not wanting to put myself there in the first place, and when I look at the world outside myself in regards to intimate relationships I see things getting worse, not better. We've reached a level of unprecedented selfishness that isn't going to slow down any time soon. I can reflect on the good times of past relationships but then fast forward to the relatively trivial reasons why things didn't last and the complete lack of understanding or reasonable compromise on their end. I'm content with my decision on that one.

Other than my roommate who is also my friend I spend a lot of time entertaining myself by myself. I'm not looking to replace 24/7 party friends with 24/7 friends who don't drink or do drugs, but I also don't want to live my life thinking that chatting with people on the Internet is being out there and enjoying life. It's just a fact that when you try to do things sober your partying friends' support is just mostly going to be verbal because they don't want to be sober, don't know how to do things sober, or feel like you're a big buzz kill because you're sober.

here's another tip :
FTW...
don't let society/the man/ the system bring you down... yes there are worrying trends..
but fuck'em...you're not part of them.
live your life humbly .knowing that passing over love affection and positive vibes... if only to 1 person..
actively changes the world and realities around us ...
this... actually .. should be enough.
don't bend/limit yourself to the normal standards.. try to shape your own.
and stick by them. BE the example of what you THINK a person should be.

if you believe you shouldn't drink a drop of Alcohol..then don't. but do it on your own.
practice self control. I can understand that.
don't go around saying that you need help.. unless you are really in a bad state.
I've seen/known/dated REAL Alcoholics.. and they are a sad sad sight... but all those people have serious mental disorders...
by reading your posts I get the impression that you're not there yet... but could very well be if you continue your current binging style
...but logically thinking ...drinking occasionaly is ok . it's all perspective.
I've yet to quit smoking... but I've brought myself to the point where I smoke 4-5 cigs a day max.(used to smoke a 1pack(20)/day)...
maybe I'll drop to 1 a day or couple of days in the future...
I never smoke at home...
but I refuse to tell people not to smoke around me or go outside when I have guests
..why be a douche...it's a test..

alls I'm saying is better yourself..
but cutting things out of your life in my experience will make you crave them like they were some forbidden fruit...(unless you're going to be a Buddhist monk or something==purpose)
and it will take mental energy to fight those thoughts.
when all the while you could have found a stressless way to manage your habit...

Haven't read the whole thread but I've been sober since May 27th 2008. Best thing I've ever done in my life by far. I had a severe Oxycontin addiction, drank a lot before that, and smoked a lot of pot before that. I had to get sober first in order to deal with all the other shit I needed to deal with. Either things that had happened to me or mistakes I had made. For me personally, getting sober was the prime mover, the first mover- anything good that will happen the rest of my life will happen because of that decision. It was tough the first few months, my mind raced like my life passing before my eyes everyday, but around the year mark things start to really make sense. I have more peace in my soul now than I've ever had, I fell back in love with music, and the emotional turmoil I always felt has been replaced by a hard won resiliency and even a little wisdom.

Good luck with whatever you decide and as Cornell West says, "We have this idea of wholeness. Charlie Parker wasn't worried about wholeness, he wasn't frustrated that he couldn't play harmony. He was trying to ride the dissonance."

Brendan