Ableton Forum

any one used sample logics packs for live in a composer work
acustica and metalix

back in live after a break found out my new software runs perfect in live 8,2,2
witch is enample pro http://www.viennaensemblepro.com/

mihai wrote:live is more than competent to handle film scoring. good luck.

you cant lock events to time position...what kind of movie scoring you are doing? nohing frame synced? or do you just live with the inconvenience that you cant alter the speed of the soundtrack without loosing the time position of all frame synced sound events?

in general live is not at home in pro and post production studios.. the timecode issues..the soudn quality..no surround support.. timeconsuming and unprecise automation.. to name a few reasons..

of cause its good to do just the composition..but that applys to all the others out there aswell.

So when nothing else is around you can do it.. just lacks a bit comfort and functionality and therfore its not everybodys choice for the task.

3phase nothing against the other points but can you be so kind an stop spreading the sound quality thing or just do a friking a/b and post it here? I tried to do it and the result was every time that my perception is biased. the cubase file was the same as the ableton file. if someone can show the quality problem I have no problem with this... but please stop promoting this henke dither thing like it is a fact.

3phase wrote: you cant lock events to time position...what kind of movie scoring you are doing? nohing frame synced? or do you just live with the inconvenience that you cant alter the speed of the soundtrack without loosing the time position of all frame synced sound events?

When I use Live to score against film/video, I create one project for each individual piece that needs to have a "tempo". For the main project I usually choose a tempo of 240bpm so that each bar corresponds to one second of film. I drop the audio that is rendered from each of the individual projects into the overall project timeline.

The way I see it, it's not very convenient to use a single project for everything. Managing tempo maps is just one part of it. It's just as much a problem to force yourself into having tracks and returns for each piece of music in the whole project -- it gives you a huge track count and makes mixing that much more complicated. Much better I think is to cut off a little piece of video, score to it, render the audio, then go to the next section. It's better organized and it means when you assemble the whole thing you're working with rendered audio (single wave files) for the soundtrack rather than a whole bunch of instrument and audio tracks.

I work the same way in Logic. It's just as much of a problem to mess around with the tempo track in Logic as in Live. Even though you can lock the position of things in an absolute sense (lock them to a frame position), when you change an earlier part of the tempo map, the later parts of the tempo map are all shifted in time, so that if you need to go back to a section and touch it up, you will find that the tempo map is out of place. It's a mess -- better to break the problem down a bit IMO.

Of course, everyone has a different approach...

-Luddy

mr.ergonomics wrote:3phase nothing against the other points but can you be so kind an stop spreading the sound quality thing or just do a friking a/b and post it here? I tried to do it and the result was every time that my perception is biased. the cubase file was the same as the ableton file. if someone can show the quality problem I have no problem with this... but please stop promoting this henke dither thing like it is a fact.

isnt it? maybe its just buggy behavior on tempo changes.. but come on.. thats allready enough to dont use it for movie scoring or other professional production tasks.

And what happens in the mix bus is really sometimes strange..a degeneration as if there would be a bit rate truncation on the whole master bus.. this goes sofar that reverb plugs that sound good in another daw realy suck in live.. is that plug in related bugs ? or the mix bus? different internal leveling? or all together?

WHatever it is, the endresult just lets other daws appear to sound better. And when the endresult is better one would state that the daw its made in sounds better.

And regarding your cubase test.. have you played the file in cubase and in life. and cubase sounded better ?..and than you compared the rendred files and they was the same? How you compared theese files? Or what do you mean about beeing biased? How have you compared the 2 daw´s in the mix?

3phase wrote:

mr.ergonomics wrote:3phase nothing against the other points but can you be so kind an stop spreading the sound quality thing or just do a friking a/b and post it here? I tried to do it and the result was every time that my perception is biased. the cubase file was the same as the ableton file. if someone can show the quality problem I have no problem with this... but please stop promoting this henke dither thing like it is a fact.

isnt it? maybe its just buggy behavior on tempo changes.. but come on.. thats allready enough to dont use it for movie scoring or other professional production tasks.

And what happens in the mix bus is really sometimes strange..a degeneration as if there would be a bit rate truncation on the whole master bus.. this goes sofar that reverb plugs that sound good in another daw realy suck in live.. is that plug in related bugs ? or the mix bus? different internal leveling? or all together?

WHatever it is, the endresult just lets other daws appear to sound better. And when the endresult is better one would state that the daw its made in sounds better.

And regarding your cubase test.. have you played the file in cubase and in life. and cubase sounded better ?..and than you compared the rendred files and they was the same? How you compared theese files? Or what do you mean about beeing biased? How have you compared the 2 daw´s in the mix?

I don’t usually get involved in this debate and I’m not going to A/B test anything, but I recently started working in Logic and I bounced a rough mix of a couple songs I was working on, almost zero work on the mixes other than volume levels. The next 2 songs in the playlist were the last 2 songs I worked on in Live and the Logic songs were a lot louder, cleaner, and fuller than the songs I did in Live. By comparison my Live songs sounded like they were playing through a mono AM radio station with the EQ set to mud. Hardly a scientific conclusion but I’m willing to bet that’s going to continue to be the case in general.

beats me wrote:
I don’t usually get involved in this debate and I’m not going to A/B test anything, but I recently started working in Logic and I bounced a rough mix of a couple songs I was working on, almost zero work on the mixes other than volume levels. The next 2 songs in the playlist were the last 2 songs I worked on in Live and the Logic songs were a lot louder, cleaner, and fuller than the songs I did in Live. By comparison my Live songs sounded like they were playing through a mono AM radio station with the EQ set to mud. Hardly a scientific conclusion but I’m willing to bet that’s going to continue to be the case in general.

thats exactly the fx i am talking about

beats me wrote: By comparison my Live songs sounded like they were playing through a mono AM radio station with the EQ set to mud.

where you using the same mastering chain in both apps? or is it just a case of Logic having better mastering plugs?

WaveRider wrote:

beats me wrote: By comparison my Live songs sounded like they were playing through a mono AM radio station with the EQ set to mud.

where you using the same mastering chain in both apps? or is it just a case of Logic having better mastering plugs?

I didn't even get that deep. I didn't toss any mastering plugs on either DAW.

luddy wrote:
When I use Live to score against film/video, I create one project for each individual piece that needs to have a "tempo". For the main project I usually choose a tempo of 240bpm so that each bar corresponds to one second of film. I drop the audio that is rendered from each of the individual projects into the overall project timeline.

The way I see it, it's not very convenient to use a single project for everything. Managing tempo maps is just one part of it. It's just as much a problem to force yourself into having tracks and returns for each piece of music in the whole project -- it gives you a huge track count and makes mixing that much more complicated. Much better I think is to cut off a little piece of video, score to it, render the audio, then go to the next section. It's better organized and it means when you assemble the whole thing you're working with rendered audio (single wave files) for the soundtrack rather than a whole bunch of instrument and audio tracks.

I work the same way in Logic. It's just as much of a problem to mess around with the tempo track in Logic as in Live. Even though you can lock the position of things in an absolute sense (lock them to a frame position), when you change an earlier part of the tempo map, the later parts of the tempo map are all shifted in time, so that if you need to go back to a section and touch it up, you will find that the tempo map is out of place. It's a mess -- better to break the problem down a bit IMO.

Of course, everyone has a different approach...

-Luddy

^ This is spot on.

beats me wrote:

3phase wrote:

mr.ergonomics wrote:3phase nothing against the other points but can you be so kind an stop spreading the sound quality thing or just do a friking a/b and post it here? I tried to do it and the result was every time that my perception is biased. the cubase file was the same as the ableton file. if someone can show the quality problem I have no problem with this... but please stop promoting this henke dither thing like it is a fact.

isnt it? maybe its just buggy behavior on tempo changes.. but come on.. thats allready enough to dont use it for movie scoring or other professional production tasks.

And what happens in the mix bus is really sometimes strange..a degeneration as if there would be a bit rate truncation on the whole master bus.. this goes sofar that reverb plugs that sound good in another daw realy suck in live.. is that plug in related bugs ? or the mix bus? different internal leveling? or all together?

WHatever it is, the endresult just lets other daws appear to sound better. And when the endresult is better one would state that the daw its made in sounds better.

And regarding your cubase test.. have you played the file in cubase and in life. and cubase sounded better ?..and than you compared the rendred files and they was the same? How you compared theese files? Or what do you mean about beeing biased? How have you compared the 2 daw´s in the mix?

I don’t usually get involved in this debate and I’m not going to A/B test anything, but I recently started working in Logic and I bounced a rough mix of a couple songs I was working on, almost zero work on the mixes other than volume levels. The next 2 songs in the playlist were the last 2 songs I worked on in Live and the Logic songs were a lot louder, cleaner, and fuller than the songs I did in Live. By comparison my Live songs sounded like they were playing through a mono AM radio station with the EQ set to mud. Hardly a scientific conclusion but I’m willing to bet that’s going to continue to be the case in general.

omg Et tu, Brute!??

3phase wrote:

mr.ergonomics wrote:3phase nothing against the other points but can you be so kind an stop spreading the sound quality thing or just do a friking a/b and post it here? I tried to do it and the result was every time that my perception is biased. the cubase file was the same as the ableton file. if someone can show the quality problem I have no problem with this... but please stop promoting this henke dither thing like it is a fact.

isnt it? maybe its just buggy behavior on tempo changes.. but come on.. thats allready enough to dont use it for movie scoring or other professional production tasks.

And what happens in the mix bus is really sometimes strange..a degeneration as if there would be a bit rate truncation on the whole master bus.. this goes sofar that reverb plugs that sound good in another daw realy suck in live.. is that plug in related bugs ? or the mix bus? different internal leveling? or all together?

WHatever it is, the endresult just lets other daws appear to sound better. And when the endresult is better one would state that the daw its made in sounds better.

And regarding your cubase test.. have you played the file in cubase and in life. and cubase sounded better ?..and than you compared the rendred files and they was the same? How you compared theese files? Or what do you mean about beeing biased? How have you compared the 2 daw´s in the mix?

...same here ! Mixes just sound better on S1 !
Live 8 rewired into S1 get's much better results then Live used alone.

And not only because S1 has better quality effects.

Please provide a short A/B sample of it. I don't mean that sarcastic. Actually I would be very happy for a prove that ableton sounds worse.

I don't say that it isn't true, but to date I haven't found one real prove. All the tests that I did and that I have seen doesn't show a difference in a AxB blind test, even tough I thought ableton sound worse myself from time to time. But again, all cases I tested doesn't show a problem besides different levels an stuff like that. Perception bias is sooo strong, your feeling, yes also my own, is just an indication. But that need to be proved to be true. That said, I'm a big prosecutor regarding abletons sample accuracy and PDC problems.

simpli.cissimus wrote:...same here ! Mixes just sound better on S1 !
Live 8 rewired into S1 get's much better results then Live used alone.

Hey! Post a Live project which demonstrates this. I don't mean A/B audio clips, but a single project file, just a simple one in which you exhibit this aspect.

You know, a project that people can check out and be like "oohh, I get it now, this sounds worse when I play it in Live, and better when rewired to S1." Not to mention that it will be measurable then as well