"Beatport" stands for Commercial and Sellout?

[LoopStationZebra]

This month's future music mag is one of those: how to realease your music and make money issues again...

Compare that with what most bands (famous and not so famous) have been saying for 10+ years. The money to be made is in touring and merchandise sold on the road. (see pepezabala's post).

Electronic artists think they are different in terms of a model for making money. They aren't.

They've been TOLD the time honoured rules of building an audience and fanbase by playing live don't apply to them. They do.

It's a pipedream and a scam of epic proportions; little different than the 'work at home and get rich' schemes that are so popular nowadays. The laptop studio and the internet are you path to riches! lol. It's little different than architecture school; where the professors all have you convinced you are going to be the next Frank Lloyd Wright or Mies van der Rohe just because you are THERE. They pump you full of sunshine very early on; without giving you the cold hard facts: You. Are. Nothing.

Someone should ask Pitch Black what would have happened with his career if he had decided to not perform live, and just release stuff online.

[pepezabala]

The real question is this: Your website has a link to merchandise. How much business do you get from that?

the real answer is : None, we have not sold one T-shirt online.

But we sold lots at concerts, especially when we ha the guy there printing them live. People could take off their shirt and get back it printed with our logo if they bought two beers to the printer and his friend! Good times.


I think the real question is: What did Burial do to get famous without playing gigs and avoiding any promotion. What happened there? How can I do the same?

[fisto]

just wanted to add: my label got accepted by Beatport TODAY

Wuuuhuuuuu

[Khazul]

just wanted to add: my label got accepted by Beatport TODAY

Wuuuhuuuuu

Good luck
I think the problem isnt getting on beatport - it staying on it

[yush]

Beatport tries to cull the 'nobody will release my track so I'll start my own label' type of people by enforcing the sales quota's. I don't think it's because they are being dicks, I think it's because they
A. Are a business
B. Don't want to be even more inundated with even more 'crappy'* music from everyone and their dog.

*crappy is relative depending on who you are.

If you don't like it, go sell somewhere else, or just don't buy there? I have never bought anything from iTunes, but I don't come onto a forum and slam them publicly trying to rally the troops?



TL/DR They are a business. They operate like a business.

Totally agree with the though here.
They are a business and to be honest they do have a lot of music that you can carve out your interest in/from.

[Khazul]

The thing that never ceases to puzzle me is just how the hell some stuff becomes successful. Taking a cross section of the dance music genre Im into - I have to say that something like 75% of what I see gets released and promoted on beatport is utter boring shite - even more amazingly this utter shite eventually ends up on best of ibiza space 20xx azuli albums, Cr2 collections, DMC Essential series etc - WTF?

Seems like half of them make some bleeps to a tedious beat and mash the fuck out of it.

OK - so thats my personal taste which is perhaps a bit more musical (or interestingly rhythmic) than alot of stuff, but even so I actually dont know anyone who particular likes it either

Yes - there is some great stuff in there as well, but Im not sure that the real number of whorthwhile producers has actuallyy increased since the days when doing this kindof thing was way less accessable. (Says me who like many of us is probbaly just contibuting to the general spam and utter shite ))

[yush]

[quote="Khazul"]The thing that never ceases to puzzle me is just how the hell some stuff becomes successful. Taking a cross section of the dance music genre Im into - I have to say that something like 75% of what I see gets released and promoted on beatport is utter boring shite - even more amazingly this utter shite eventually ends up on best of ibiza space 20xx azuli albums, Cr2 collections, DMC Essential series etc - WTF?

Seems like half of them make some bleeps to a tedious beat and mash the fuck out of it.

OK - so thats my personal taste which is perhaps a bit more musical (or interestingly rhythmic) than alot of stuff, but even so I actually dont know anyone who particular likes it either

Yes - there is some great stuff in there as well, but Im not sure that the real number of whorthwhile producers has actuallyy increased since the days when doing this kindof thing was way less accessable. (Says me who like many of us is probbaly just contibuting to the general spam and utter shite ))[/quo


See the key is to follow the artists and Djs you like.
For me it has been satoshi tomiie and Danny Howells-- through them I have been exposed to artists and music that I would have never found otherwise and then you follow those artists and amidst all this 70% of their music can be found on Beatport.

[Cezband]

Interesting reading, this thread.

Just thinking out loud regarding electronic musicians/djs building a following and identity by playing live - how?

Like, with a band, they stand on stage in front of you. They say their own name at least 3 times over the course of the set (if they've got any sense). At least one of them will stand out as the ugly guy or the dude with the 'fro, and you'll recognise them if you see the band supporting someone else.

With djs, they're usually locked in a booth somewhere. If they're lucky enough to be on a stage, they've got their head down behind the mixer. Their name might be in massive letters on the posters and fliers but if I go to a local night at least I have no idea who is djing at the point I walk into the venue. So is the only strategy to wear a massive mouse head or what?

Short answer: IMHO DJs need to have a rockstar attitude on stage, not just this "hands in the air for the build-up" thing.

[LoopStationZebra]

how?

One way is to keep shouting "HELLO CLEVELAND! throughout the gig.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C21yssFhCsk

[pepezabala]

Interesting reading, this thread.

Just thinking out loud regarding electronic musicians/djs building a following and identity by playing live - how?

Like, with a band, they stand on stage in front of you. They say their own name at least 3 times over the course of the set (if they've got any sense). At least one of them will stand out as the ugly guy or the dude with the 'fro, and you'll recognise them if you see the band supporting someone else.

With djs, they're usually locked in a booth somewhere. If they're lucky enough to be on a stage, they've got their head down behind the mixer. Their name might be in massive letters on the posters and fliers but if I go to a local night at least I have no idea who is djing at the point I walk into the venue. So is the only strategy to wear a massive mouse head or what?

Short answer: IMHO DJs need to have a rockstar attitude on stage, not just this "hands in the air for the build-up" thing.

Well DJs shouldn't sell anything, they play other peoples music, and get paid for entertaining the crowd which in turn generates cash flow at the bar.

Musicians on the other hand create something that they then want to sell, e.g. on beatport.

[Khazul]

Well DJs shouldn't sell anything, they play other peoples music, and get paid for entertaining the crowd which in turn generates cash flow at the bar.

Musicians on the other hand create something that they then want to sell, e.g. on beatport.

The difference between a DJ playing a selection of music and a producer/performer playing their own music off a laptop and controllers etc tends to be lost on the averegae punter in a club type venue.

Actually clubs are bad places to play for an image/brand building perspective. You typically end up having most of what goes into making a brand out of your control and in the control of the club fixed installation. If your lucky you get to plug into the ILDA lasers and video projector - if they reaslly know you well and your a good mate's with the manager and/or owner, the you get to plug into the light system as well and go up in downtime to programme a light show - very rare!

To the punter you just another person in the booth - often invisible in there, behind the glare of lights and smoke etc. Deadmau5 had the right idea - stick a mouse head on to be visually memorable when nothing else about what you do will be.

If your putting on a decent show - you need to be visually memorable if you want to build a brand, tie that brand between you, your music, your peformances and therefore media and merchandise sales - doesnt matter if you are a band, or a laptop producer/performer or a band - allways the same problem.

But for DJs and laptop performers - I think it is *alot* harder to build a image. Part of a bands show *is* the band - they are visible and out there etc, nott stuck in a booth, behind a gear stand or whatever. Ironically bands tends to get showmanship more than DJs etc, where the reality is I think Djs/laptop performer needs to put way way more effort into the non-music aspects of a show (ie visuals etc) to make it memorable and therefore contribute to you brand/image development.

Even better if you happen to have a hot bit of fluff wearing not alot doing vocals etc of course who is allready very well known

[Forge.]

Well DJs shouldn't sell anything, they play other peoples music, and get paid for entertaining the crowd which in turn generates cash flow at the bar.

Musicians on the other hand create something that they then want to sell, e.g. on beatport.

The difference between a DJ playing a selection of music and a producer/performer playing their own music off a laptop and controllers etc tends to be lost on the averegae punter in a club type venue.
...

funny enough I just typed something about this exact thing in the VCM600 thread: http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... 1#p1256491

.<snip>....to be totally honest I spent a lot of time working on big fancy template sets so that I could do big clever live sets on the fly and I never felt satisfied. I just always came to the conclusion that people in general will have a better night when you just play good tunes where they are already well produced and carry the vibe than me standing there on stage playing the hunched nerd being all clever but spending 10 minutes fucking around with a drum track so that I'm the only one that knows I'm tweaking the hi-hat and to everyone else it doesn't sound much different ....etc - to me this is the great dilemma of trying to do electronic music live... much harder to strike that balance between clever and interesting, and good to dance to.

Frankly, just playing 2 good tracks together is much more likely to get a room rocking IMO.

Now I'm talking totally about club music here, but I have a whole bunch of traditional "songs" (not "traditional in the sense of 'the Dubliners', but as in that they are songs with words....) which I am thinking of going out and gigging.... they would have guitar, some live looping and it would be much more elaborate but it would be a completely different audience and aim.... I suspect this is closer to what Pepezabala does (haven't got time to check the link right now) but I think that kind of music is a lot more personal and less disposable than house music.... hence the reason merchandise etc sells at the gigs.....

[Khazul]

Now I'm talking totally about club music here, but I have a whole bunch of traditional "songs" (not "traditional in the sense of 'the Dubliners', but as in that they are songs with words....) which I am thinking of going out and gigging.... they would have guitar, some live looping and it would be much more elaborate but it would be a completely different audience and aim.... I suspect this is closer to what Pepezabala does (haven't got time to check the link right now) but I think that kind of music is a lot more personal and less disposable than house music.... hence the reason merchandise etc sells at the gigs.....

Following on from my dance music is full of shit post above what you say here really does fit into that. On here (post your music subforuum) and on beatport I kind of get the impresion the world revolves around bleepy non-vocal imhuman music. Lots of DJs I comes across seem utterly convinced this is what we should all be listening to and not 'traditional' singing stuff.

At the other end of the scale folks I know who are guenuinely sucessful DJs (Global dance session folks, some MOS folks etc) etc fucking hate this shit unless it is at least musicial, or great energy and/or has a really moving groove to it even if still bleepy - and like to play alot of vocal stuff because basically it subconsciously grabs peope more (vs depressing mechanical bleep thud bleep!). Its not that the vocals themselves matter (I think?), it that there is a nice voice in it - not some friggin darlek! (yeh - I never got into daft punk either...) - I think people need some humanity in an increasingly inhuman world?

So play your 'traditional' stuff - dont be afraid like it seems half the chin stroking producer/DJ world seem afraid to. I keep point poepl at beattport out of curiosity - the usual response apart from a few rather cool tracks is 'WTF' or similar?

The headache of course - 'traditional' stuff with a full mix often sound really crap in a mushy reverb club and looses so much. Not that many producers manage to create something that is both full (and so listenable at home/car etc) and club focussed so it sounds energetc, lively and crisp etc in mush.

I truly hate hip hop - but at least its human. My reason for hating it arnt really the music, but all the shit that goes around with it - especiall back it is early days - miami and other places in the US etc... ugh - too many ugly memories!

[Forge.]

The headache of course - 'traditional' stuff with a full mix often sound really crap in a mushy reverb club and looses so much. Not that many producers manage to create something that is both full (and so listenable at home/car etc) and club focussed so it sounds energetc, lively and crisp etc in mush.

well my thoughts on this so far have been that I will do some "Live mixes" of these tracks and break it up into specific "instruments" if you like - like synths, 'samplers', drums, and play either bass or guitar live and vocals, so some harmonies might stay in the mix too.... quite a few of these tracks started out as live looping type things, so I might be able to do some of that live.....

funny enough, while I'm typing this I'm listening to Underworld's '2nd Toughest...' and maybe it's because they started out as a "band" in the classic sense, but I'm remembering how much they managed to keep everything flowing with that "live" feel but still be electronic, and thinking about it in the above context it seems like that is EXACTLY how they did it - i.e. they had really clearly defined instruments, like 909, Sampler, vocals, guitar - it was all clearly defined.... so it seems to me this is the key to getting a decent live set together, is just a case of making sure all the right sounds are grouped together.....

It's funny in a way, because I used to make music in exactly that way when I just used a computer for MIDI and it drove samplers and synths, like we all did over a certain age, but with programs like Live the problem is it's one big sampler but also lets you trigger MIDI "the old way" so sometimes those lines aren't as clearly drawn....

ahhh I dunno it's 12.05 am and I'm starting to rant....

[Cezband]

If your putting on a decent show - you need to be visually memorable if you want to build a brand, tie that brand between you, your music, your peformances and therefore media and merchandise sales - doesnt matter if you are a band, or a laptop producer/performer or a band - allways the same problem.

But for DJs and laptop performers - I think it is *alot* harder to build a image. Part of a bands show *is* the band - they are visible and out there etc, nott stuck in a booth, behind a gear stand or whatever. Ironically bands tends to get showmanship more than DJs etc, where the reality is I think Djs/laptop performer needs to put way way more effort into the non-music aspects of a show (ie visuals etc) to make it memorable and therefore contribute to you brand/image development.

This is definitely the point I was trying to make. I think if I was to go down the 100% electronic route, I would still try to get gigs with bands as opposed to DJs, simply because in a club-type venue the DJ is almost incidental. At a gig on the other hand, the expectation is there for the people on stage to interact directly with the punters and that provides the platform for making that connection that builds the brand/image.

It's all about visibility - I remember a chap posted a picture of his set-up on this forum, and he had a stand that he'd made for his launchpad that was actually tilted towards the audience. To me that makes all the difference - they see you press a button, they see the lights change, they hear the music change at the same time and they are engaged with exactly what you're doing.

Maybe electronic performers should just glue all their midi controllers to an MDF board shaped like a guitar and stand front and centre, foot up on the monitor, putting everything they're tweaking and processing right up in the face of the people watching.