Ableton Forum

Thought I'd better tack my post on here for the hell of it so I can be blamed for this thread also -

<disclaimer> Ignore at will <disclaimer>

smutek wrote: These guys have done some extremely interesting, innovative and groundbreaking work together. Rather than Deadbeat being a fan as you suggest, I would venture that they are contemporaries, peers if you will, perhaps even friends.

Indeed. A little looking around will tell you mr. Henke and mr. Beat have been doing a project together. A rather interesting one, in fact.

Anyway, It´s all fine with me. due to a hectic schedule I haven´t had the time to dive into Operator yet but I think that if it´s indeed a matter of personall obsession then that´s a positive thing, not a bad one. People will do their best work for personal obsessions, much better then simply following what is expected of them. Seeing as Robert´s work is of such a consistently high quality I´ll feel forced to have a good look at operator and see wether it´s worth the money. Even if it turns out it´s not a synth for me I sincerely hope Robert won´t let some of the posts here bother him and continue to work on his own obsessions, hopefullly resulting in new unusual synths and effects.

If you are reading this, Robert; please keep the obsessions, the ego-trips and labours of love coming. Untill you start selling pseudo analogue substractive synths in plain brown envelopes to make last year´s music with you won´t hear me complaining.

i love operator. My music prior to ableton live was ok, but post live i really took off (producing 3 records in one year as opposed to 1 every 3 years!)
now comes operator and another step up. this little synth is so much hotter than FM7 - which ive been using for a couple of years (i used to use a dx7 previously + tx81z +dx xyz ---> i prefer operator to all of them!)

dear 16 bit,

it is ok, if you "express your feelings" about ableton or the operator. Please go ahead and share your speculations with us. But please help us to keep this forum an agreable place for all users.

Bash ableton if it makes you feel better, but please do not bash other users. Thank you.

Best regards, Reiner

WARNING: LONG POST!!!

Hey Ben

First off, I really was just trying to be funny here, hope you didn't take it as a serious personal attack. If so you have my sincere apologies.

RE: your comments:

"Study marketing and realise how "unstrategic" this move was, it will be even more obvious."

While I never officially studied marketing, I was one of the people responsible for this end of things for another company in the MI industry for about 4 years. I mention this not to stroke my own ego but simply to clarify that i learned the hard way some of the things that work and REALLY don't work in marketing these kinds of products. With this in mind, my humble evaluation of Ableton's choice to release Operator and the way in which it is being presented is that it makes tons of sense for two reasons:

1) A larger product line means more potential users

There are lot's of examples of successful companies in this industry who have managed to grow their user base by expanding their product range. While it certainly could be argued that Operator doesn't really constitute a new product as it only runs in Live, the inclusion of a powerful synth right out of the box does expand their range of potential buyers, as it opens Live up to users who are looking for a one stop solution, and aren't neccessarily ready to shell a grand for the likes of Logic, Cubase, or Pro Tools. To give some specific examples, I think Operator will probably make Live a real option for people that might otherwise choose to go with FLStudio, Reason, or Project 5, and certainly makes it a mucher greater value for the those considering something like Acid or Garageband. While this is just my personal opinion, I'd even go as far to venture that Live's simplicity makes it a better choice for serious musicians who are just getting started with computer based production and recording than Cakewalk, Cubase, Logic, or even Pro Tools. In fact, I make this recommedation to people all the time.

2) Showing your user base that they're dealing with real people with a vested 'personal' interest in continued growth makes sense

Keeping yourself open to direct, personal discussion with your users, e.g. making them feel that they can come to you with suggestions and problems at anytime and be taking seriously is of vast importance in such a competitive, niche industry. I think we can all agree that Ableton does a great job of this, and probably give a TON of examples of companies who haven't In allowing Robert to share some of his personal motivations for creating Operator in the press release, Ableton have shown that they're commited to this perosnal, open book appoach not just in terms of development and support, but in the marketing of they're products as well. You're inital post clearly shows how this kind of openess can be dangerous. By revealing your personal motivations for developing a product, you run this risk of coming off as egotistical to your users. On the flip side you could also choose to see it not as the person's story, but the story of the instrument itself. This is a strategy was proven years ago by the hardware manufacturers, who did a great job of imbueing their instruments with perosonality and making their users feel like they were part of a club. I can tell you from first hand experience that any Minimoog owner you see shaking hands with Mr. Moog himself is on a first name basis with him. I don't think the same can be said of users who meet the developer of Steinberg's XT9-5000 which they only released to compete with the EMagic R2D2-911.

Regardless of how well I know Robert or anyone else at Ableton, I personally much prefer this strategy to the 3rd person, interview style press release filled with esoteric industry standard compliance and 'our sampling rate is bigger than yours' bullshit the vast majority of company's in this industry use these days.

My 2 cents... erm... make that 50 cents

Scott

Deadbeat wrote:
the inclusion of a powerful synth right out of the box does expand their range of potential buyers, as it opens Live up to users who are looking for a one stop solution, and aren't neccessarily ready to shell a grand for the likes of Logic, Cubase, or Pro Tools. To give some specific examples, I think Operator will probably make Live a real option for people that might otherwise choose to go with FLStudio, Reason, or Project 5, and certainly makes it a mucher greater value for the those considering something like Acid or Garageband.

If I may pick this point apart for a moment.

Operator is not included "right out of the box." The "box" costs $499 on its own, and then Operator is another $150 on top of that. For one synth. So we're now looking at $650 for "out of the box."

Now, compare that to Reason ($399) or GarageBand (free or $79 for iLife). (I'm chosing those as those are the programs I'm most familiar with per your example.) I'm sorry, but I fail to see the bargain here. If anything, as a new user, I'd look at the racks of synths and samplers one gets "out of the box" in Reason, and then look at how Live has a cool synth available, but they want to stick you for another $150 to get it, I'd be turned off by Ableton and Live altogether.

Again, I'm talking as a hypothetical new user here, as per your post.

So $650 vs. $399. Plus the added feeling of "If you want this software to really be cool, you've got to pay us more money" that the Ableton marketing strategy implies. I don't care for it.

I understand your position and I appreciate your extensive thoughts, but I strongly disagree with the way in which this synth is being offered.

on a similar point

I think Operator will probably make Live a real option for people that might otherwise choose to go with FLStudio, ...

I'm not too sure about that, there is a lot of difference between the two, so a comparison isn't really possible - but ...

fruity producer edition: $149

additional synths ( DX10) :$19

total = $168 for application and an extra synth.

there's a package configurator here:
http://takeway.e-officedirect.com/takew ... &UserName=


I know a lot of people rate Fruity as some sort of toy or low quality app, personally I find it very useful and even inspiring for some styles (or tasks)
Obviously the intererface isn't anywhere near as good as lives for Live work, but it is a totally different kettle of fish. They add good stuff to it all the time (eg new timestretching thing) & it's a powerful app for certain uses. Usually rewired into Live.

Anyway - it's cheap, in anyones money!

Reiner wrote:dear 16 bit,

it is ok, if you "express your feelings" about ableton or the operator. Please go ahead and share your speculations with us. But please help us to keep this forum an agreable place for all users.

Bash ableton if it makes you feel better, but please do not bash other users. Thank you.

Best regards, Reiner

Eh?

What about your pal Deadbeat? Did he not bash Benshink?

And if you check my posts over the last few days you will see that I was not bashing Ableton.

Isnt it strange after your post deadbeat posts?

reiner, dont single me out on this forum because Operator has had so much negative responses. Deal with it like Digidesign do and ride the situation.

Final Post On This Subject.

I fully admit that I may have gone to far in my response to Deadbeat. Im human.

But what I really dont like to see on a forum is someone who acts like a schoolyard bully boy. His initial response to benshink was uncalled for.

Deadbeat wrote:
I really was just trying to be funny here, hope you didn't take it as a serious personal attack.

Scott

ouf... I love Montreal, the plateau and stuff, but thank god I won't need to buy an expensive plane ticket to settle this Russian style he he

Well, I re-read my post and, even if I maintain my point of view, I agree it was expressed in an over-emotional way.

As you rightly point out, Ableton have decided to expose the individual behind Operator. But in this case, Robert Henke must understand that it makes him some kind of public figure. he should then expect to be observed. And my post, as emo as it was, was based on my observations. Like: I read what Robert wrote in his operator story, and I came to the conclusion that he has a big ego. So? Whats wrong with that? Lots of artists and inventors have a disproportionate ego. So what?

I initially said that because I wanted to demonstrate that Operator isn't a dirty marketing trick to widen Ableton's consumer base, as lots of users complained about. I coud not believe it's true. I thought "no, Operator is not an attempt to make money, this is Robert Henke's love affair with FM synthesis because this guy doesnt do things simply for money" Well, that's what I thought...

But then you come in tell me that what I feared is true

You demonstrate that Ableton did Operator "to grow their user base by expanding their product range" (ie make money)!!!!!!

Then what??? You tell me that Ableton made the conscient marketing decision to tag Robert Henke's face there to make us feel part of a club?!?!?
Sorry but then I much prefer to believe in my big ego theory...

Anyway, if what you say is true, then it brings me back to the first line of my initial post: Operator's release is for me a bad marketing move.

Ben

OOps

thought I wa sending a PM
Honest. The last thing I wanted was thi sthread revived.

No need for anyone else to respond here

OK